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Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis
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Poster Chubbs Offline
Posted 12/28/09 08:48 PM
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WASHINGTON ONE OF FOUR STATES CONSIDERING BILLS

Proposed bill would legalize pot

SEATTLE LAWMAKER SAYS ITS TIME TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION


BY RACHELLA CORTE

Associated Press

OLYMPIA — Washington is one of four states where measures to legalize and regulate marijuana have been introduced, and about two dozen other states are considering bills ranging from medical marijuana to decriminalizing posses­sion of small amounts of the herb.

“In terms of state legisla­tures, this is far and away the most active year that we’ve ever seen,” said Ethan Nadelmann, executive di­rector of the New York­based Drug Policy Alliance, which supports reforming marijuana laws.

Nadelmann saidthat while legalization efforts are not likely to get much traction in state capitals anytime soon, the fact that there is such an increase of activity “is elevating the level of public discourse on this issue and legitimizing it.”

“I would say that we are close to the tipping point,” he said. “At this point they are still seen as symbolic bills to get the conversation going, but at least the conversation can be a serious one.”

Opponents of relaxing marijuana laws aren’t hap­py with any conversation on the topic, other than keeping the drug illegal.

“There’s no upside to it in any manner other than for those people who want to smoke pot,” said Travis Kuykendall,head of the West Texas High Intensity Drug­Trafficking Area office in El Paso, Texas. “There’s noth­ing for society in it, there’s nothing good for the country in it, there’s nothing for the good of the economy in it.”

Legalization bills were introduced in California and Massachusetts earlier this year, and this month, New Hampshire and Wash­ington state prefiled bills in advance of their legislative sessions that begin in Janu­ary. Marijuana is illegal un­der federal law, but guide­lines have been loosened on federal prosecution of medical marijuana under the Obama administration.

Even so, marijuana re­form legislation remains a tough sell in some places. In the South, for example, only Mississippi and North Carolina have decriminal­ization laws on the books.

“It’s a social and cul­tural thing,” said Bruce Mirken, spokesman for the Marijuana Policy Project, a Washington, D.C.-based marijuana advocacy group. “There are some parts of the country where social at­titudes are just a little more cautious and conservative.” Rep. Mary Lou Dicker­son, a Seattle Democrat who is sponsoring the legal­ization bill in Washington state, said that she “wanted to start a strong conversa­tion about the pros and cons of legalizing marijuana.”

Under her bill, marijuana would be sold in Washington state’s 160 state-run liquor stores, and customers, 21 and older, would pay a tax of 15 percent per gram. The measure would dedicate most of the money raised for substance abuse prevention and treatment, which is fac­ing potential cuts in the state budget. Dickerson said the measure could eventually bring in as much to state cof­fers as alcohol does, more than $300 million a year.

“Our state is facing a huge financial deficit and deficits are projected for a few more years,” Dick­erson said, referring to the projected $2.6 billion hole lawmakers will need to fill next year. “We need to look at revenue and see what might be possible.”

Allen St. Pierre, execu­tive director of the Nation­al Organization for the Re­form of Marijuana Laws, said that tough economic times across the country have lawmakers looking at everything, and may lead even more states to eventu­ally consider the potential tax value of pot.

Ron Brooks, president of the National Narcotics Officers’ Associations’ Co­alition, said that he feared that, if legalized, marijuana would contribute to more highway accidents and deaths, as well as a potential increase in health care costs for those who smoke it.

State lawmakers, he said, need to ask themselves “if they believe we really will make all that revenue, and even if we did, will it be worth the suffering, the loss of opportunities, the chronic illness or death that would occur?”

Legalization isn’t the only measure lawmakers across the country are weighing. About two dozen states, in­cluding Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Wisconsin, are considering bills ranging from medical marijuana to decriminalizing posses­sion of small amounts of marijuana, St. Pierre said. Washington state is among the states that are consider­ing decriminalization, with a bill that would reclassify adult possession of mari­juana from a crime with jail time to a civil infraction with a $100 penalty.



Comments
#25184 - 01/01/10 04:50 PM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: funkycamper]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3509
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: funkycamper

The thing that bothers me with pot is the way it stays in your system, especially for a regular user. There needs to be way to measure for "safe" levels, like the .08 for booze. I don't believe there is.


Myth: Marijuana's Active Ingredient, THC, Gets Trapped in Body Fat. Because THC is released from fat cells slowly, psychoactive effects may last for days or weeks following use. THC's long persistence in the body damages organs that are high in fat content, the brain in particular.

Fact: Many active drugs enter the body's fat cells. What is different (but not unique) about THC is that it exits fat cells slowly. As a result, traces of marijuana can be found in the body for days or weeks following ingestion. However, within a few hours of smoking marijuana, the amount of THC in the brain falls below the concentration required for detectable psychoactivity. The fat cells in which THC lingers are not harmed by the drug's presence, nor is the brain or other organs. The most important consequence of marijuana's slow excretion is that it can be detected in blood, urine, and tissue long after it is used, and long after its psychoactivity has ended.

*
Committees of Correspondence. Drug Abuse Newsletter 16 (March 1984).

*
Mann, Peggy. Marijuana Alert. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company. 1985. 184.

*
Nahas, Gabriel. "When Friends of Patients Ask About Marihuana." Journal of the American Medical Association 233 (1979): 79.

*
DuPont, Robert. Getting Tough on Gateway Drugs. Washington, DC: American Psychiatric Press, 1984. 68.

Originally Posted By: funkycamper

I guess, in the long run, I don't care if someone gets stoned in their home on a Saturday night as long as they're not driving. LJ's video is interesting but I still don't want a someone driving high...I just don't.


Well, get over it, lady grin

Myth: Marijuana Use is a Major Cause Of Highway Accidents. Like alcohol, marijuana impairs psychomotor function and decreases driving ability. If marijuana use increases, an increase in of traffic fatalities is inevitable.

Fact: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

*
Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. “Legalization: Panacea or Pandora’s Box”. New York. (1995):36.

*
Swan, Neil. “A Look at Marijuana’s Harmful Effects.” NIDA Notes. 9.2 (1994): 14.

*
Moskowitz, Herbert and Robert Petersen. Marijuana and Driving: A Review. Rockville: American Council for Drug Education, 1982. 7.

*
Mann, Peggy. Marijuana Alert. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1985. 265.

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#25192 - 01/01/10 09:48 PM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: Beavis H. Christ]
funkycamper Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 4757
I'm just saying that if a heavy equipment operator causes an accident, or even a death, that I would want some measurable way of determining whether THC left in the bloodstream is high enough to be determined as a contributor or not, same as we do with .08 levels for alcohol.

I have no idea if any scientific studies would indicate if this is true or not but chronic pot smokers over the years that I've known indicate that they get higher on less pot over time because the built-up THC means they're not starting from zero in order to get stoned. Should that be a concern for safety reasons? I have no idea.

While I agree that pot should be legalized, there is one element about pot that bothers me a bit. This is just my personal quirk and I'm not saying it should be considered when establishing policies...but you can enjoy a single drink, bottle of beer or glass of wine with the intention of enjoying the taste of the drink and no intention of getting drunk or even tipsy. But one smokes pot with the intention of getting stoned or at least a little bit high. This just kinda bugs me about it.
_________________________
"If a 'right' exists for me, but not for thee, then it's not a right but a privilege.' - Fred Clark

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#25196 - 01/02/10 08:45 AM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: Beavis H. Christ]
Lumberjack Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3274
Originally Posted By: Beavis H. Christ

Pot causes motivational problems? Also false:


Back in a previous professional supervisor life the most productive worker was also the biggest stoner. She could produce more consistently high quality written work than any two of her peers.

Just don't ask her to go to any meetings unless it was really important.

She was actually very discreet about it.
_________________________
It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#25197 - 01/02/10 09:21 AM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: funkycamper]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3509
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: funkycamper

I have no idea if any scientific studies would indicate if this is true or not but chronic pot smokers over the years that I've known indicate that they get higher on less pot over time because the built-up THC means they're not starting from zero in order to get stoned. Should that be a concern for safety reasons? I have no idea.


I've never, ever heard that, rather the opposite in fact--your tolerance builds up for it and not only does it take more, but you can actually function more competently while high.

Scientific studies would seem to support my anecdotal evidence, but anecdotes are like a**holes, as they say grin

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#25198 - 01/02/10 09:22 AM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: Lumberjack]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3509
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: Lumberjack
She could produce more consistently high quality


...no pun intended grin

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#25203 - 01/02/10 10:46 AM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: funkycamper]
Wally B Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 761
Originally Posted By: funkycamper
...I would want some measurable way of determining whether THC left in the bloodstream is high enough to be determined as a contributor or not, same as we do with .08 levels for alcohol.

The problem is legislative, not scientific. A blood test can determine what chemicals are in circulation and a what levels. The legislator has to look at the data and determine what level of what chemical is intoxication per se. The judicial branch gets to determine at what point it is reasonable to stick a needle in a citizen and deprive him of some of his vital fluids.

Quote:
I have no idea if any scientific studies would indicate if this is true or not but chronic pot smokers over the years that I've known indicate that they get higher on less pot over time because the built-up THC means they're not starting from zero in order to get stoned.


A Canadian study, published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology tested the effects of dosage on regular marijuana users. Accodring to the abstract. "These findings imply that smoking of 17 mg THC results in impairment of cognitive—motor skills that could be important for coordinated movemen and driving, whereas the lower dose of 13 mg THC appears to cause less impairment of such skills in regular users of marijuana."

A effect is seen in alcoholics where they can perform everyday tasks with a blood alcohol level that would have the rest of us horizontal and snoring.

Quote:
Should that be a concern for safety reasons? I have no idea.

A study published in the journal Injury Prevention found a positive relationship between marijuana and cocaine use and being "at fault" in traffic accidents.

The Norweigan journal, Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen reported in 2007:
Both experimental and epidemiological studies have demonstrated the negative effects of THC upon cognitive functions and psychomotor skills. These effects could last longer than a measurable concentration of THC in blood. Culpability studies have recently demonstrated an increased risk of becoming responsible in fatal or injurious traffic accidents, even with low blood concentrations of THC. It has also been demonstrated that there is a correlation between the degree of impairment, the drug dose and the THC blood concentration. [Abstract translated from Norweigan ]

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#25212 - 01/02/10 02:18 PM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: Wally B]
funkycamper Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 4757
The Canadian study indicates that 17mg THC and up does result in impairment. But it also indicates that there is some impairment even at 13 mg...if that's not the case, than how could regular users have less impairment? If there is no measurable impairment at 13 mg, than how could they measure that? So then there is impairment at lower levels. I wonder at what level the impairment starts?

I didn't bother to click through to the Injury Prevention study...sorry...but the Norwegian study indicates that THC in the blood, even at levels that are not measurable, increases the risk of "being responsible" for traffic accidents. Am I reading this wrong? Doesn't this support my argument?
_________________________
"If a 'right' exists for me, but not for thee, then it's not a right but a privilege.' - Fred Clark

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#25218 - 01/02/10 03:44 PM Re: Wasted POTential – Cost/Benefit analysis [Re: funkycamper]
Wally B Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 761
Originally Posted By: funkycamper
The Canadian study indicates that 17mg THC and up does result in impairment. But it also indicates that there is some impairment even at 13 mg...if that's not the case, than how could regular users have less impairment? If there is no measurable impairment at 13 mg, than how could they measure that? So then there is impairment at lower levels. I wonder at what level the impairment starts?

Perhaps we can't answer the original question empirically. "High" is subjective. "Impaired" is somewhat easier to rate objectivly.

Quote:
I didn't bother to click through to the Injury Prevention study...sorry...but the Norwegian study indicates that THC in the blood, even at levels that are not measurable, increases the risk of "being responsible" for traffic accidents. Am I reading this wrong? Doesn't this support my argument?


I think you're reading it correctly. Intoxicants are bad for motor skills and judgement. They may be beneficial for creative processes, c.f. Lumberjack's discrete stoner and any number of alcoholic poets, playwrights, and novelists.

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