How about continuing with the rest of my statement.
And how about preaching the whole counsel of God...
I realize that much of it is not politically and liberally correct.




Well, I'm glad that we can discuss Paul's teaching without you running from the thread with your hair on-fire. There is at least one on this board who claims believer status but is a Paul-hater and rejects his scripture.

While we're on the topic of Paul and his love, may I remind you that it was Paul who wrote at least twice, once in the same epistle you have cited, that believers are to shun/have nothing to do with those who call themselves believers but practice a lifestyle of sin. Paul wouldn't continue calling them brothers...he called them "wicked/evil persons." Oh the judging!




Boo-hoo that it scares people.
Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Fear inspired the Ninevites to wise-up and repent.




Ah...just as I suspected.
With you it's about the "we"..."we show."
Remember the Parable of the soils?

I'm more of a Holy Spirit fan, myself.
It's all about God's Sovereignty.
Christ showed Saul something genuine all right.
He knocked him off his horse, on his a$$, and blinded him.




More importantly?
Personally, I believe every aspect of Christ's life, words, and actions are equally compelling. And Christ did preach repentance.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Not any less true today than it was then.




You are most likely mistaken.
I'm pretty sure Glenn meant "Greetings in the Saviour's name, (which is) Jesus."

I appreciate the work you put into your commentary on the letter, however, I believe Glenn was on a rant about state licensed "Long Branch" establishments which facilitate one or more biblically condemned works of the flesh; of which your favorite biblical writer says:

"they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

OK, here you go.

However, too many "believers" cling to the biblical kumbaya passages and reject Christ's instruction to judge with righteous judgment, holding matters up to the light of God's Word. What does it have to do with me if God's Word irritates, angers, or makes someone squirm?

What does it have to do with you? Nothing. Not your words, right? Of course. And that's what makes them so easy to toss around so flippantly, because you don't have to take the heat for them. You can toss off the inflammatory remarks and then tell people to "take it up with God." It's all too convenient. Sure, it's not your problem if the Word insults or irritates, unless you get off on it, that is. I won't assume you do, but I know plenty who do so it's a serious red flag. It's a psuedo power trip. You get to be an abrasive jerk to people because you're just the messenger and then you get to direct them to God to register the complaint. It's the bully move, the intimidation routine. I've seen it a lot and it's an ugly example, grossly abused to get the messenger off the hook.



Here's where I think you're most missing my point. You're looking at the "lifestyle of sin"- the outward. I'll say it again, Christ saved his strongest rebukes for those living the perfect outward life. There was no evident lifestyle of sin but their hearts were filled with the stuff.

Paul was tormented by the duality of his own heart and lamented his own weakness to sin. It's possible that, had any of his followers been able to peer into his heart, they would have shunned him by using his own barometer against him. Paul was an abrasive personality, but that doesn't mean it's always the right tact to take. It may have been a lot of his old flesh getting in the way. That may have been part of his torment. Paul wasn't perfect, you know. So, yes, I like his writing. I think it's intelligent and contains much wisdom. I also think it should be studied critically, like I would study the message of any modern-day preacher. I don't just assume that because Paul did something, it's the right thing to do. He's not my yardstick.



Hmmm... maybe you do get off on it. Again with the condescending. Tough love has a time and a place, but it's usually a sign of an exhausted play book. And when it's Plan A, it's a sign of an empty play book. Hit and run. Seen it before. Didn't think much of it then, either.



2 Timothy 1:7: “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind”

There's more than one kind of fear. Fear (reverence) is healthy. Fear (scare tactics) are unhealthy and yield insincere results. Sure, you made 'em dance alright, but only because you were shooting at their feet. Their heart remains unchanged.



Ah, your cynical nature was right about me all along. Well done, you've sniffed me out. And you're not at all presumptuous, I don't know where people get that about you.



He certainly got Saul's attention, which was the intent.



Yes, more importantly. He came to do more than die for sin. He could have made that whole sacrifice over a long weekend. He spent his time here to live a normal life and show it could be done, to fulfill prophecy and to set an example and his example was one of love and mercy to... wait for it... people living a lifestyle of sin. Oh, and the Pharisees who looked great on the outside. Ah, discernment, not everybody has it.



How often? I mean, I've gambled, does that mean I'm going to hell? Go ahead, tell me, you seem comfortable making that call.

Does Paul mean anyone who's ever done that? Done it more than five time? Where's the line? Oh, that's right, there is no definitive line, it's up to the final judge. And since we can only see the outside and God cares more about the heart, we do well to not write people off so easily and instead show them the love of Christ. Show them the positive difference he has made in our lives. It's much more effective than just trying to scare them into believing and a lot less arrogant and presumptuous.

Claims, eh? You know my heart? I can't improve upon this response either so...

As a believer, I do accept that there are eternal consequences to our actions. However, I believe that is up to the final judge. Too many Christians read about condemnation of one type or another and just can't wait to get the process started on God's behalf.

I'm doing exactly that.
You claim to be a believer.
I'm leaving it up to God.

"Claim" is a judgmental modifier. You also "claim" to be a "believer." In this context you are judging whether or not Funky's faith is indeed sincere and then shifting responsibility for your own judgment call on to God.

In other words, doing exactly what MDean described.

Paul teaches that Christ gave grace and gifts to men for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and for edifying the body of Christ, His Church.

He gifted some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers. In a past season, confirmed by pastors, He led me to teach. In this season, also confirmed by pastors, He has given me a prophet's heart. Perhaps he has given you the heart of an evangelist. Each has a role in the Body of Christ.

Christ's prophets, OT and NT, preached repentance without concern as to how it affected them personally (well, Jonah was a bit reluctant, but evidentially feared God more than man.)

I hope you are not asserting that God's prophets were bullies and flippant, abrasive jerks on pseudo power trips; they (just two examples: Jeremiah/John the Baptist) spoke as God's Spirit led with little regard for how they would be received or the affect their words would have on men.

Hearts were not always changed, often not changed at all...remember Noah? However, the prophets were faithful to preach God's words and warnings. Which charges against God's prophets would you like to bring before the Lord?





He came to do the one thing that no one else could do:

I did not come to abolish The Law, but to fulfill it.

Doing so gave Him the one qualification that no one else could attain: He was chosen by God and able to be the Atonement, the Propitiation for sin, the perfect human sacrificial Lamb to pay the price for human sin for all who believed, and give His life to ransom His Bride.

He also said:

For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also; for that is what I came for.

For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth.




As should all Christians.





God warns against presumptuousness concerning His mercy, patience, and grace, so I tend to take that to heart.

At issue was greed and illicit lust.
If you ever watched Gunsmoke, you know that activities at the Long Branch facilitated and evolved into many works of the flesh, and Paul repeats that those who prasso
(practice/exercise/are busy with) works of the flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Shame on presumptuous, arrogant Paul!...all those scoldings and warnings...trying to scare people the way He did! He should have just shown the people more love.

Funky has stated that she's a member of a UMC.
Their articles of religion state that the canonical books of the Old and New Testament, which would include each and every scripture written by Paul, holds unquestioned authority; and that they should be studied.

That is a basic tenet of Christianity.

Funky has asserted a hatred of Paul and of his teachings, a refusal to honor his inspired scripture, rebelling against a basic tenet of Christianity. Is that the heart of a true believer? The final judgment is, of course, up to God. In the meantime, the phrase claims to be is not out of line.

Good grief! Ya know, it was exactly this type of mean-spirited, judgmental, nastiness that drove me away from church in the first place. And that was a long time prior to my decision that Paul's teachings were at the root of a lot of these types of statements leading me to ignore his writings. That only came later when I spent time studying more in-depth the handouts and notes I had compiled in a binder from adult Sunday School that virtually always used the teachings of Paul to justify being hateful and hurtful. Have fun leading people to Christ. Why use kindness when a double-barrel shotgun will do?

BTW, not a member of UMC, just an occasional visitor. I'm still skittish of church people because so many are like you.

My Christ is better than your Christ!
My Church is better than yours.
My interpretation's better
Cause I got the Holy Spirit!
My God is better than yours.

Bicker on, Sky Godders. Bicker on. As long as you're pi$$ing all over each other, maybe you'll leave the sanity afflicted alone. Pttttthhhp!

And my point was that greed and lust can make a home in any heart, not just those that hang out in casinos. It's also very possible that a person can go to a casino and not be burdened with greed or lust.

1 Samuel 16:7 - "The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."

Judging people that go to casinos and taking a shotgun approach that they are all greedy and lust-filled, is short-sighted. Often times, the really troublesome sin in a person's life is carefully hidden and invisible from the outside.

It also assumes that everyone exercising greed and lust are doing so with no concern. Not so. Many people struggle daily with weakness and desperately want to overcome it, while in the midst of it. Just like Paul. Another browbeating isn't the solution.

I prefer not to judge and condemn. I prefer to try and offer something desirable for people to strive for. I often fail. As such, after self-examination, I've never found myself in a position qualified to cast stones.

Condemn if you must, but a responsible judge will start with a mirror and branch out from there. A little self-examination goes a long way.

As for the casinos, as I said before, change the patrons and the business will follow. Merely closing the doors does nothing of lasting good. The greed and lust is still there. If you really care about people, you will recognize that. It's a very simple truth. If all you care about is scoring political wins, knock yourself out and chase those awful buildings, but it's an empty, self-satisfying, masturbatory, pointless endeavor. Closing buildings won't save the lost.



Scoff all you like, but it was Paul who said:

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

So yeah, if Paul wasn't showing people love, shame on Paul. And if you can only heap condemnation and cannot demonstrate love, shame on you.

Your lack of concern that your method might actually be pushing people away is concerning and telling. If you really care about the people you hope to reach, you will consider that they might not need hit in the head with condemnation, they might just need a friendly hand up. That's too soft for you, I expect. Pity. Because that's what Christ gave you.