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#25993 - 01/21/10 06:54 PM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: Turnow]
funkycamper Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 4992
Wouldn't it be easier to just buy them from somebody else?
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#25996 - 01/21/10 07:04 PM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: funkycamper]
Turnow Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
The AP reports that the company is "voluntarily" removing the biblical citations and providing retrofits to remove the citations from the military's existing supply of 300,000, though it seems that military leaders acted to put a stop to it.

Quote:
By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer Richard Lardner, Associated Press Writer – 24 mins ago

WASHINGTON – A Michigan defense contractor will voluntarily stop stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights made for the U.S. military, a major buyer of the company's gear.

[snip]

The references to Bible passages raised concerns that the citations break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, which are predominantly Muslim countries.

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command initially said the Trijicon sights didn't violate the ban and compared the citations on the sights to the "In God We Trust" inscription printed on U.S. currency.

On Thursday, however, Army Gen. David Petraeus, Central Command's top officer, called the practice "disturbing."

"This is a serious concern to me and the other commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan," Petraeus told an audience at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

In a statement issued later by the command, Petraeus said that "cultural and religious sensitivities are important considerations in the conduct of military operations."

[snip

The company's practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.

"Trijicon has proudly served the U.S. military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," Stephen Bindon said in the statement.
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#26001 - 01/21/10 08:10 PM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: Turnow]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 645
Loc: Grays Harbor
Originally Posted By: Turnow
The AP reports.

Quote:
By RAY LILLEY, Associated Press Writer Ray Lilley, Associated Press Writer – Thu Jan 21, 6:07 am ET

WELLINGTON, New Zealand – Biblical citations inscribed on U.S.-manufactured weapon sights used by New Zealand's troops in Afghanistan will be removed because they are inappropriate and could stoke religious tensions, New Zealand said Thursday.


Call me silly, but it seems the thing that would cause tension is the fact that those sights are attached to guns, big guns they shoot at the locals.
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#26002 - 01/21/10 08:20 PM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: mdean]
Turnow Offline
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Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Quote:
Call me silly, but it seems the thing that would cause tension is the fact that those sights are attached to guns, big guns they shoot at the locals.


I wouldn't call you silly for expressing such a sentiment. The biblical references on the scopes, it seems to me, only reinforce the notion that the USA military is engaged in a "crusade" in Afghanistan, thus further alienating the local populations.
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#26003 - 01/21/10 09:38 PM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: Turnow]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 645
Loc: Grays Harbor
Originally Posted By: Turnow
I wouldn't call you silly for expressing such a sentiment. The biblical references on the scopes, it seems to me, only reinforce the notion that the USA military is engaged in a "crusade" in Afghanistan, thus further alienating the local populations.



I have a friend in the military, who has served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to hear him tell it, our military has gone to unusual lengths to not offend the Muslims. Little things like banning our soldiers drinking alcohol so we don't offend the Muslims. Of course, it wouldn't matter how many of their customs we adopted to try and seem like a "friendly" enemy, the fact that we have women in service is an affront to their beliefs. May as well have a drink, we're infidels already.

I don't know, it just seems like such a minor thing in the grand scheme of all that is war. I don't get the same crusade feeling you get from this war, so, while I can see where some might be offended by it, I didn't get a conspiracy vibe from it. Also, your article said they've been stamping scripture on their sights for 30 years.
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#26007 - 01/22/10 06:45 AM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: mdean]
Turnow Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Quote:
I don't get the same crusade feeling you get from this war, so, while I can see where some might be offended by it, I didn't get a conspiracy vibe from it.


I don't believe the USA military is pursing a crusade. I was suggesting that the biblical citations would reinforce the crusade charge frequently laid by those fighting the USA forces.
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#26009 - 01/22/10 08:04 AM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: Turnow]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 645
Loc: Grays Harbor
Oh, I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying.
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#26013 - 01/22/10 09:32 AM Re: New Zealand wises up. [Re: mdean]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3816
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: mdean
Also, your article said they've been stamping scripture on their sights for 30 years.


What I don't get is how Christians (this company is supposedly Christian)could think stamping references to Jesus on instruments of killing an appropriate thing to do.

But that's for another forum I suppose grin


Edited by Beavis H. Christ (01/22/10 09:32 AM)

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#26015 - 01/22/10 09:54 AM A crusade? [Re: mdean]
Lumberjack Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3472
I think it's interesting for two reasons:
a) Biblical inscriptions on sniper rifle scopes? Really?
b) I think that the motivations of those who prosecute the war are mostly irrelevant. The only motivation that matters is that of the guy who started it.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

Quote:
the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."
...
From the outset he has couched the "global war on terror" in quasi-religious terms, as a struggle between good and evil. Al-Qa'ida terrorists are routinely described as evil-doers. For Mr Bush, the invasion of Iraq has always been part of the struggle against terrorism, and he appears to see himself as the executor of the divine will.

He told Bob Woodward - whose 2004 book, Plan of Attack, is the definitive account of the administration's road to war in Iraq - that after giving the order to invade in March 2003, he walked in the White House garden, praying "that our troops be safe, be protected by the Almighty". As he went into this critical period, he told Mr Woodward, "I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will.

"I'm surely not going to justify war based upon God. Understand that. Nevertheless, in my case, I pray that I will be as good a messenger of His will as possible. And then of course, I pray for forgiveness."

Another telling sign of Mr Bush's religion was his answer to Mr Woodward's question on whether he had asked his father - the former president who refused to launch a full-scale invasion of Iraq after driving Saddam Hussein from Kuwait in 1991 - for advice on what to do.

The current President replied that his earthly father was "the wrong father to appeal to for advice ... there is a higher father that I appeal to".


http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/08/gog-magog-and-george-bush

Quote:
Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East.... The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled.... This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”

This bizarre episode occurred while the White House was assembling its “coalition of the willing” to unleash the Iraq invasion. Chirac says he was boggled by Bush’s call and “wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs.”

After the 2003 call, the puzzled French leader didn’t comply with Bush’s request. Instead, his staff asked Thomas Romer, a theologian at the University of Lausanne, to analyze the weird appeal.

....In 2007, Dr. Romer recounted Bush’s strange behavior in Lausanne University’s review, Allez Savoir....Subsequently, ex-President Chirac confirmed the nutty event in a long interview with French journalist Jean-Claude Maurice, who tells the tale in his new book, Si Vous le Répétez, Je Démentirai (If You Repeat it, I Will Deny), released in March by the publisher Plon.


Crusade? Yeah, pretty much.
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#26037 - 01/22/10 08:34 PM Re: A crusade? [Re: Beavis H. Christ]
Wally B Offline
old hand

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 820
Originally Posted By: Beavis H. Christ
What I don't get is how Christians (this company is supposedly Christian)could think stamping references to Jesus on instruments of killing an appropriate thing to do.

It dates back to the 4th Century and the battle of Milvian Bridge. Constantine I reportedly marked his soldiers' shields with a cross or Chi Rho after a vison and dream-vist from Jesus. Constantine won the battle and the fashion was set.

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