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#27064 - 03/03/10 07:28 AM Abuse of Power
Bogus_bill Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 1400
Loc: SMA Mexico
The Wall Street Journal attacks this unsavory method of ramming health care down our throats:

Quote:
A string of electoral defeats and the great unpopularity of ObamaCare can't stop Democrats from their self-appointed rendezvous with liberal destiny—ramming a bill through Congress on a narrow partisan vote. What we are about to witness is an extraordinary abuse of traditional Senate rules to pass a bill merely because they think it's good for the rest of us, and because they fear their chance to build a European welfare state may never come again.

The vehicle is "reconciliation," a parliamentary process that fast-tracks budget measures and was created in 1974 as a deficit-reduction tool. Limited to 20 hours of debate, reconciliation bills need a mere 50 votes in the Senate, with the Vice President as tie-breaker, thus circumventing the filibuster. Both Democrats and Republicans have frequently used reconciliation on budget bills, so Democrats are now claiming that using it to pass ObamaCare is no big deal.

Yet this shortcut has never been used for anything approaching the enormity of a national health-care entitlement. Democrats are only resorting to it now because their plan is in so much political trouble—within their own party, and even more among the general public—and because they've failed to make their case through persuasion.

As Maine Republican Olympia Snowe pointed out in a speech last December, Social Security passed when Democrats controlled both Congress and the White House, yet 64% of Senate Republicans and 79% of the House GOP voted for it. More than half of the Senate Republican caucus voted for Medicare in 1965. Historically, major social legislation has always been bipartisan, because it reflects a durable political consensus.


I have said in the past that no one party should own this. The supposed party-of-no's involvement (meaning involved not dictated to) could have created a less aggressive but financially responsible start to reform. No one is arguing against it, only the method.

link.
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The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27068 - 03/03/10 07:49 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
MWMI Offline
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 504
How about this....instead of all the parlimentary BS being done by both sides (see Sen. Idiot Bunning as exhibit A) they propose legislation and then take a vote. If 51 of the senators approve then TS for the side that loses. It's called a majority vote and the losing side will either need to get over it or work harder to get more like them elected. No instead we have a minority trying to get their way over the majority. I say let the legislation go forward and let the voters prove who is actually right in the battle of the polls i.e. the american public approves/disapproves of healthcare legislation.

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#27069 - 03/03/10 08:47 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Turnow Offline
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Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
What tendentious, and completely false, crap from the WSJ.

Quote:
Former Senate parliamentarian Robert Dove on reconciliation: ""Reconciliation has been used a lot. And I would never use the term illegitimate with regard to reconciliation. It has been used starting in 1980 for very large, major bills. And it is a way, of course, of getting around the problem of the Senate filibuster." See the video.


TPM has the video.

To assert that "ramming a bill through Congress" using a long established Senate procedure is simply propaganda perpetrating a lie which has been echoing through the media.
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#27070 - 03/03/10 08:48 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: MWMI]
Turnow Offline
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Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Indeed.
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Strive for the ideal, but deal with what's real.

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#27076 - 03/03/10 09:52 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
Yet this shortcut has never been used for anything approaching the enormity of a national health-care entitlement.


Pop quiz; COBRA is the acronym used to describe the law that allows laid off employees to retain their employment-based insurance after leaving the company. What does "RA" stand for?
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27077 - 03/03/10 09:57 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Lumberjack]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2946
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: Lumberjack

Pop quiz; COBRA is the acronym used to describe the law that allows laid off employees to retain their employment-based insurance after leaving the company. What does "RA" stand for?


Uhhhhh..."Republican Amnesia?"

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#27078 - 03/03/10 09:59 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2946
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
a mere 50 votes in the Senate, with the Vice President as tie-breaker,



...i.e. a majority, which is how it's supposed to work on regular votes.

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#27081 - 03/03/10 10:19 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Beavis H. Christ]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: Beavis H. Christ
Originally Posted By: Lumberjack

Pop quiz; COBRA is the acronym used to describe the law that allows laid off employees to retain their employment-based insurance after leaving the company. What does "RA" stand for?


Uhhhhh..."Republican Amnesia?"

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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27082 - 03/03/10 10:22 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Turnow Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
More from TPM

Quote:
Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) was on Fox News this morning and called reconciliation a way to "railroad the American people and the Congress." This is the same Judd Gregg who took to the Senate floor in 2005 to defend reconciliation as merely a "rule of the Senate" that allows for a simple majority vote. Video after the jump.


And even more.

Quote:
On April 16, 2001, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) took to Fox News to boast about the GOP's first major use of the budget reconciliation process in the Bush-era. "I think we can do a reconciliation bill that'll have an overwhelming number of senators and congresspeople voting for this $1.3 trillion to $1.6 trillion tax cut," he said.

Today, he has a somewhat different take.

"To impose the will of some Democrats and to circumvent bipartisan opposition, President Obama seems to be encouraging Congress to use the "reconciliation" process, an arcane budget procedure, to ram through the Senate a multitrillion-dollar health-care bill that raises taxes, increases costs and cuts Medicare to fund a new entitlement we can't afford," Hatch writes in a Washington Post op-ed today. "This is attractive to proponents because it sharply limits debate and amendments to a mere 20 hours and would allow passage with only 51 votes (as opposed to the 60 needed to overcome a procedural hurdle). But the Constitution intends the opposite process, especially for a bill that would affect one-sixth of the American economy."


There are a number of Congressional republicans lying about "reconciliation", a canard the WSJ editorial board is please to propagate.

Do the likes of Hatch and Gregg do not realize that their historical positions and comments aren't a matter of public record and that no one will go looking for them?
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Strive for the ideal, but deal with what's real.

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#27085 - 03/03/10 12:32 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Turnow]
Turnow Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Quote:
Former Senate parliamentarian Robert Dove on reconciliation: ""Reconciliation has been used a lot. And I would never use the term illegitimate with regard to reconciliation. It has been used starting in 1980 for very large, major bills. And it is a way, of course, of getting around the problem of the Senate filibuster." See the video.


Kevin Drum passes on a report by Ben Stein.

Quote:
In a display of chutzpah extreme even by modern conservative standards, Sam Stein reports that Republicans have begun a campaign to "cast doubt" on the impartiality of Senate Parliamentarian Alan Frumin. Why is this so brazen? Because they're the ones who hired him in the first place:

Quote:
Frumin was elevated to the post by Republican leadership in 2001, in part because he had a reputation for adhering to institutional mores rather than personal ideology. At the time, Majority Leader Trent Lott said he was confident Frumin could do the job, having known him for many years.

....In May 2001, Republican leadership fired Frumin's predecessor, Robert Dove, after he issued a series of rulings that complicated their efforts to pass aspects of the Bush tax cuts and budget proposals through reconciliation. Dove had decided it was inappropriate for money intended for natural disaster relief to be considered through budgetary rules — and he was summarily axed.


Nickel summary: Republicans hired Frumin in 2001 specifically because they thought he might issue friendlier rulings to Republicans. Now they're afraid he's turned on them.


Stunning hypocrisy and dishonesty emanating from some republican congresspersons. Fire the parliamentarian when his rulings don't support efforts to improperly utilize the reconciliation process, hire a parliamentarian perceived to more malleable, and then turn on him because his rulings don't go your way.


Edited by Turnow (03/03/10 12:37 PM)
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#27086 - 03/03/10 02:16 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
I have said in the past that no one party should own this.


I think you make a good point, it's a real gamble for one party to take this on. If it bombs, it becomes a noose. But if it's a success it becomes a trophy and the opposing party looks like fools. A win comes with a lot of political clout.

The Dems are in a corner and if they fail to make it happen they will pay for it, so at this point it looks like they have nothing to lose by rolling the dice and owning it alone.
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Mike

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#27087 - 03/03/10 02:40 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Brit Offline
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Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 405
Originally Posted By: mdean
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
I have said in the past that no one party should own this.


I think you make a good point, it's a real gamble for one party to take this on. If it bombs, it becomes a noose. But if it's a success it becomes a trophy and the opposing party looks like fools. A win comes with a lot of political clout.

The Dems are in a corner and if they fail to make it happen they will pay for it, so at this point it looks like they have nothing to lose by rolling the dice and owning it alone.



Unfortunately this is what it has come down to, whether or not it's good for the political party (and their prime contributors) rather than whether or not it's good for the country. Little wonder people no longer trust their politicians.
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#27088 - 03/03/10 03:04 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: mdean
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
I have said in the past that no one party should own this.


I think you make a good point, it's a real gamble for one party to take this on. If it bombs, it becomes a noose. But if it's a success it becomes a trophy and the opposing party looks like fools. A win comes with a lot of political clout.

The Dems are in a corner and if they fail to make it happen they will pay for it, so at this point it looks like they have nothing to lose by rolling the dice and owning it alone.


Do what's right and politics (usually) takes care of itself.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27090 - 03/03/10 03:26 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
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#27092 - 03/03/10 04:36 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Turnow Offline
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Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Ezra Klein adds his two cents.

Quote:
Among the odder arguments Republicans are making against the reconciliation process is that the process should only be used for bipartisan bills, and since they refuse to vote for health-care reform, Democrats can't give their package of fixes an up-or-down vote.

But reconciliation hasn't been limited to bipartisan bills. Here's the recent record: The 1995 Balanced Budget Act was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 52 to 47. The 2001 Bush Tax Cut was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 58 to 33. The 2003 Bush Tax Cut was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 50 to 50, with Dick Cheney casting the tie-breaking vote. The 2005 Deficit Reduction Act was also passed in reconciliation with a 50 to 50 vote and a Cheney intervention. The 2006 Tax Relief Extensions Act was passed in reconciliation. The final vote was 54 to 44. This is as you'd expect: If bills had overwhelming bipartisan majorities, they wouldn't need to go through reconciliation.

As it happens, Republicans controlled the Senate during each and every one of these bills. And they got less votes than Democrats will likely get for the health-care fixes. It's also worth reminding people that it's harder for Democrats to get Republican votes because voters elected a lot more Democrats in the past two elections. Republicans had a number of moderate Democrats who could be brought into a 58-vote majority, and Democrats don't have as many moderate Republicans who can do the same.
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#27102 - 03/03/10 07:11 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Turnow]
ikayak Offline
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Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 1883

So will ObamaCare have a sunset clause, or just completely fly in the face of the Byrd Act?

Originally Posted By: Senator Byrd

I oppose using the budget reconciliation process to pass health care reform and climate change legislation. Such a proposal would violate the intent and spirit of the budget process, and do serious injury to the Constitutional role of the Senate.

As one of the authors of the reconciliation process, I can tell you that the ironclad parliamentary procedures it authorizes were never intended for this purpose. Reconciliation was intended to adjust revenue and spending levels in order to reduce deficits. It was not designed to cut taxes. It was not designed to create a new climate and energy regime, and certainly not to restructure the entire health care system.


And this:

http://i.usatoday.net/news/pdf/byrdletter.pdf


And speaking of hypocrites, scroll down to watch video.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35779

"This is the way Democracy ends.
Not with a bomb,
but with a gavel."


Cheers!


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#27112 - 03/04/10 07:19 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Bogus_bill Offline
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Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 1400
Loc: SMA Mexico
I think they have a lot to lose by owning it alone and for a very long time. I pulled this comment off of a list of comments on a yahoo story about healthcare:

Quote:
Here's a novel idea for Washington. How about shelving Healthcare Reform and GET PEOPLE BACK TO WORK! What good is having access to health insurance if Americans DON'T HAVE A JOB to pay their health insurance premiums. Getting our economy back on track and putting people back to work is far more important than revamping the health care right now. Especially when Americans have the best healthcare available in the world!


20% of Grays Harbor is out of work. Do you think those people are wanting another bill to owe in the future. If you have ever been out of work you know it takes forever to get caught back up with bills. A lot of people feel like the guy above does.

There are a lot of costs the people of this country are going to have to pay because of this bill. There is a financial storm brewing just ahead of us full of even more costs. People will not forget that one party felt adding to our debt was more important than putting people back to work.
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The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27114 - 03/04/10 08:16 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Stash Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3341
Loc: State of Euphoria
Politicos and corporations have been saying, "Now is not the right time" since Truman. There will never be a "right time" for corporate America or their protectors to willing give up their strangle-hold over the healthcare of our nation.

It must be wrested from them kicking and screaming. I am marginally confident it will be this time.
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"Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't go to yours." - Yogi Berra

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#27115 - 03/04/10 09:11 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
Quote:
Especially when Americans have the best healthcare available in the world!


It's not. Period.

Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
20% of Grays Harbor is out of work. Do you think those people are wanting another bill to owe in the future. If you have ever been out of work you know it takes forever to get caught back up with bills. A lot of people feel like the guy above does.

There are a lot of costs the people of this country are going to have to pay because of this bill. There is a financial storm brewing just ahead of us full of even more costs. People will not forget that one party felt adding to our debt was more important than putting people back to work.


A healthcare bill *could* have been written which could have created immediate job creation benefits. Imagine if everyone who was tied to a job solely because of medical insurance was immediately freed to innovate and become entrepreneurs (if they wish) retire (if they wish) or move into jobs which they were better suited (if they wish). Any of those outcomes would create jobs and job openings which don't currently exist.

Instead of killing two birds with one stone, the healthcare bill only stuns the vulture actively carrying our children away. It's a necessary step which meets the bare minimum required.

It may be suboptimal, but what was absolutely necessary 40 years ago is an emergency crisis now. We can't put it off any longer because no job creation bill will be effective if we continue to allow the medical industry to continue their trajectory.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27123 - 03/04/10 10:27 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Stash]
Bogus_bill Offline
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Posts: 1400
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Quote:
I am marginally confident it will be this time.


Marginally, it might. More than likely issues like abortion will sink it.

I am not against healthcare. With our financial crisis and people out of work it is, at very least, a secondary problem to employment, long lasting employment.

I hope this healthcare bill gets a quick up or down vote and we can get to the real problems we are facing. Everyone else has a years head start on us.
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The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27152 - 03/05/10 09:05 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Stash]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
Originally Posted By: Stash
Politicos and corporations have been saying, "Now is not the right time" since Truman. There will never be a "right time" for corporate America or their protectors to willing give up their strangle-hold over the healthcare of our nation.

It must be wrested from them kicking and screaming. I am marginally confident it will be this time.


You make a point, however, there have a been a lot of times in that gap that were more right than the present. I think Bogus makes a great point, and I happen to agree, creating jobs should be the top priority. I know health care is his pet and his legacy, but we're coming off a depression! Get people back to work! If he does that, he will have a much happier populous to appeal to for health care.

A history of the opposition saying "it's not the right time" doesn't mean that this is the right time.
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#27153 - 03/05/10 09:25 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: mdean
however, there have a been a lot of times in that gap that were more right than the present


In 1957 when Truman pushed for universal health care we spent 5.1% of GDP on it.

Remember 1990 when healthcare was a big crisis?
At that time, we spent 12.1% of our GDP on health care.

Today we spend 17%.

The problem was never more urgent than it is today.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27155 - 03/05/10 10:02 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Lumberjack]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
Being urgent does not make it affordable, nor does it make it the top priority. Ask the people who have been out of work and lost their retirement, their homes, their savings... ask them if they'd rather have health care or a paycheck right now.

Or, just look in the mirror and ask yourself if you'd trade your house, your savings, and your income for health care.
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Mike

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#27158 - 03/05/10 10:15 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Lumberjack]
Bogus_bill Offline
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Posts: 1400
Loc: SMA Mexico
This plan spreads the risk around by forcing everyone to have healthcare insurance. It is a tax, plain and simple. People cannot afford any more taxes right now. They don't have jobs. Their country is not focused on being able to compete with other countries which would create long lasting jobs. Their country's leading party is focused on another tax.

I am not sure what part of the GDP this new plan is going to consume but I cannot see it being much better. It just spreads the costs to more people, many of which are unemployed.







_________________________
The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27159 - 03/05/10 10:15 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Stash Offline
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3341
Loc: State of Euphoria
I agree wih you that jobs are a priority. The mistaken meme I've been hearing from the nay-sayers is "Obama needs to put this down and focus on jobs" as if jobs haven't been a priority or that he can only do one thing at a time. There have been plenty of discussions and actions regarding jobs in America. To suggest he or congress haven't been "focused" on jobs is blantantly false.

Jobs legislation can get and has received Republican and Conservtive Democratic support. Healthcare reform has been and will be stonewalled by the Republicans and Conservative Dems forever. There is no tomorrow on this. Now is the time.
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"Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't go to yours." - Yogi Berra

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#27162 - 03/05/10 10:35 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: mdean
Or, just look in the mirror and ask yourself if you'd trade your house, your savings, and your income for health care.


If I get sick, that's exactly what will happen, but sadly, since that house and those savings are inadequate to pay for the care of many commonplace curable illnesses, I'll die.

No job creation plan will be effective so long as health care inflation stays on its current trajectory.

You are buying into the republican false choice; "keep paying and no one gets hurt".

We ALREADY pay 17% of GDP for healthcare, the only thing that diverting some of those expenses through the government does is that it gives us some leverage in controlling the rate of inflation.

We're the frog in the pot of water slowly brought to a boil... but the water's boiling like a S.O.B. now.

What would the unemployment rate have to be, and how much of the economy should healthcare consume before the time is right?
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#27163 - 03/05/10 10:38 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Lumberjack Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
This plan spreads the risk around by forcing everyone to have healthcare insurance. It is a tax, plain and simple. People cannot afford any more taxes right now. They don't have jobs. Their country is not focused on being able to compete with other countries which would create long lasting jobs. Their country's leading party is focused on another tax.

I am not sure what part of the GDP this new plan is going to consume but I cannot see it being much better. It just spreads the costs to more people, many of which are unemployed.


They can't afford taxes, but because of inaction (to use a tangible example) Californians *can* afford a 24% hike in health insurance premiums?

The CBO has determined that the deficit will be reduced as a result of healthcare reform.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...e_cost_rise.PNG

The immediate savings in terms of GDP will be small. What it does do is control the growth of that, and enables the economy to begin growing again.

Businesses support healthcare reform and they should. The countries we are losing ground to are succeeding because they got smart decades ago and guaranteed healthcare to every citizen.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27164 - 03/05/10 10:40 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Stash]
mdean Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
Sure, he can multitask, but until the jobs happen, the unemployed will look at every bit of attention he put elsewhere as wasted focus that should have been spent on our economy. The appearance is that health care is his focus, whether blatantly false or not, and that is going to cost your party.

I can hear the radio spot now... cue the dramatic dirge... enter the voice over... "At a time when you had less money, what did the Democrats give you? More taxes."

OMG, it's gonna be fish in a barrel time.
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Mike

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#27166 - 03/05/10 10:55 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Lumberjack]
mdean Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
Originally Posted By: Lumberjack
If I get sick, that's exactly what will happen...


Right. IF you get sick. But I can guarantee you'll get hungry. Today. And tomorrow.

Originally Posted By: Lumberjack
You are buying into the republican false choice; "keep paying and no one gets hurt".


No, I'm looking at the fact that unemployed people can't keep paying, nor can they afford to pay for something new.

Originally Posted By: Lumberjack
What would the unemployment rate have to be, and how much of the economy should healthcare consume before the time is right?


Get unemployment down to at least under 10%. Not a projected or padded 10%, either. Real honest-to-goodness 9%. Better yet, 6-7% nationwide. Get us back to a spot where we can afford to worry about our president's sex life. Then, take on health care and sell it to a much happier group of tax payers.

I'm not saying it doesn't need to happen, I'm saying it doesn't matter what kind of great deal you offer to a poor man. If you show him a plan that costs $100, compared to his current plan which costs $1,000, but he only has $20, your "bargain" is still out of reach.


Edited by mdean (03/05/10 10:56 AM)
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#27170 - 03/05/10 11:27 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
funkycamper Offline
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Posts: 3872
One of the reasons why we aren't as competitive as many other countries for the creation of family-wage jobs is due to our health care system. Don't forget the headlines when Toyota built a big plant in Canada instead of coming to the US. Canada's health care system was a big factor in their decision. How many other jobs have we lost for the same reason that just haven't made the headlines?

And there could be many budding entrepreneurs with good ideas that could add jobs to the economy who are afraid to take the leap because they would be leaving behind jobs that provide health care.

Bottomline, our current system is one of the causes of those lost jobs. It's not an either-or situation.
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"If a 'right' exists for me, but not for thee, then it's not a right but a privilege.' - Fred Clark

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#27172 - 03/05/10 11:33 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: funkycamper]
mdean Offline
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Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
I see your point and agree, but have all the jobs that existed a couple years ago moved overseas, or just fizzled out because the economy couldn't support them? I think it's fair to blame part of our economy on our health care, but not our immediate situation, which is what needs to be solved first.
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Mike

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#27174 - 03/05/10 11:45 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Lumberjack Online   content
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Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2273
Our economy has been reliant upon investor bubbles of one form or another for 30 years.

The fundamental fix for the economy is to return to our roots; significantly reward labor, not capital.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Abraham Lincoln, December 3, 1861.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras

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#27175 - 03/05/10 11:51 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Stash Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3341
Loc: State of Euphoria
Originally Posted By: mdean
Sure, he can multitask, but until the jobs happen, the unemployed will look at every bit of attention he put elsewhere as wasted focus that should have been spent on our economy. The appearance is that health care is his focus, whether blatantly false or not, and that is going to cost your party.

I can hear the radio spot now... cue the dramatic dirge... enter the voice over... "At a time when you had less money, what did the Democrats give you? More taxes."

OMG, it's gonna be fish in a barrel time.


I don't think he should stop doing what is right because some people may falsly think he was not giving their issue enough attention and, therefore, not vote for him. Is mine the right political position? I don't know. But, I think getting healthcare reform in this brief historical window when it's possible trumps making the political decision. However, I won't concede it's value as a political decision. Anyone objectively looking at healthcare in America knows the system is broken. I submit making historical levels of progress towards the fix will end up being a positive rather than a negative.
_________________________
"Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't go to yours." - Yogi Berra

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#27190 - 03/05/10 04:39 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Stash]
mdean Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
I appreciate and agree with your sentiment that doing what is right for the people is the noble thing to do, even if it costs politically. Taking one for the team, so to speak. I am in favor of that. But I think the team as a whole needs a steady income before they need health care. They need both, I agree, but the economic needs are immediate and pave the way for greater support for health care.
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Mike

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#27191 - 03/05/10 04:54 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Stash Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3341
Loc: State of Euphoria
Originally Posted By: mdean
I think the team as a whole needs a steady income before they need health care. They need both, I agree, but the economic needs are immediate and pave the way for greater support for health care.


Remember the meme. He has been working on jobs... all along, he has been working on jobs. It seems like some are acting like our smallest children; hide under a blanket and you're "All Gone!" If we don't see it, it must not be happening. It was. It is. So is healthcare.
_________________________
"Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't go to yours." - Yogi Berra

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#27193 - 03/05/10 05:05 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Stash]
Bogus_bill Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 1400
Loc: SMA Mexico
What meme?

The only jobs being created are government jobs and guess who pays for them.

What have we done to prepare ourselves to compete in the world market? The Chinese quickly shot to the top on green technologies. What has our government done in that area to help us? Our infrastructure is crumbling. We pass spending bills but what portion fixes up our bridges, roads and rails?

Our congress and it's leadership from the president cannot claim they are working on jobs for a whole year and not see more results than what we have seen to date. They just can't.

They were working on healthcare and dabbling in other things.




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The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27194 - 03/05/10 05:38 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Turnow Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Quote:
The only jobs being created are government jobs and guess who pays for them.


I imagine the likes of your former employer, or other outfits working on highway jog funded by stimulus money might be a bit surprised at such a sentiment.
_________________________
Strive for the ideal, but deal with what's real.

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#27199 - 03/05/10 08:06 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Turnow]
Bogus_bill Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 1400
Loc: SMA Mexico
Quote:
I imagine the likes of your former employer, or other outfits working on highway jog funded by stimulus money might be a bit surprised at such a sentiment.


You have no idea how bad that business is and has been for quite some time. But after a few more years South of the Border I will forget all the desperate people who wanted jobs that came in daily, desperate subcontractors that were about to lose their businesses and workers who make a third of what they used to and are wondering if they are going to make it.

Yes sirree, having just come back from a walk on this beautiful 70 degree night, the world is perfect. Or will be when the reality of the other place leaves me.

As far as I know the only stimulus money that made it to Grays Harbor was that bus transfer station that we didn't need.
_________________________
The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27262 - 03/08/10 08:45 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Stash]
mdean Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
Originally Posted By: Stash

Remember the meme. He has been working on jobs... all along, he has been working on jobs. It seems like some are acting like our smallest children; hide under a blanket and you're "All Gone!" If we don't see it, it must not be happening. It was. It is. So is healthcare.


I'm not saying he hasn't, I'm saying, as far as I can tell, it is not his top priority, health care is. I think he's got it backwards. If you can show me where jobs has been his #1 focus, please do and I will change my tune. I've seen some improvement, sure, but not to the degree he's spouting, especially in the recent article I linked which failed the critical thinking test by a long shot. Until people are back to work, every minute not spent getting them jobs will count against him.

I just read the latest Rolling Stone this weekend and they have a couple good articles about it and one of them said the same the exact same thing: every day not spent on jobs is a wasted day.

I realize the president has a full plate and can't devote all of his time to jobs or too many other things would crumble, but if he wants to weather this storm he needs to make it his main focus. If it already is, he needs a better marketing team because the public is not getting that impression. That will cost him and put Republicans back in power.
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Mike

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#27266 - 03/08/10 09:24 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Bogus_bill Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 1400
Loc: SMA Mexico
I read an article on how bad this really is but cannot find it again. Basically it would take a booming economy just to start employing all those laid off and it would be years until those who lost their jobs would be employed again. Add to that the new people just coming into the job market.....

It is a long hard road ahead of us. People who are desperate for jobs are voting for one thing only, jobs. The fat cats in congress with paychecks coming in don't understand the gravity of it. These are the kinds of times that really bad leaders with big promises get voted in. These are the times where social unrest is only going to be fueled by a government that is not spending enough energy, creative energy on jobs and our competitiveness in this world economy.

I am paying a lot of attention to the Greek financial tragedy. One day we may hear, if you cannot pay your bills give us your parks, or whatever.

We are not doing enough. Healthcare is needed, yes, but it is going to just be an unfunded mandate if we don't have people working. Carts and horses again. We are putting the wrong one in front.
_________________________
The people have spoken, but healthcare passed anyway..Leno

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#27268 - 03/08/10 09:48 AM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Wally B Offline
addict

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 434
Originally Posted By: Bogus_bill
As far as I know the only stimulus money that made it to Grays Harbor was that bus transfer station that we didn't need.

Although stimulus funds were spent on the new station, the bulk of the funding was allocated in 2005. (Why did it take so long to break ground?)

According to this site, Grays Harbor is in line for a total of $67,954,423 in recovery funds.

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#27274 - 03/08/10 01:21 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
MWMI Offline
addict

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 504
As far as I know the only stimulus money that made it to Grays Harbor was that bus transfer station that we didn't need.


Actually some of Aberdeen's sidewalk projects are being paid for with stimulus money as are other projects around the county.

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#27277 - 03/08/10 02:24 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: MWMI]
mdean Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 198
Loc: Grays Harbor
...And, as if on cue, Exhibit A of why I soooo want Obama to get it right. Because apparently, when it suits them, Republicans think there are plenty of jobs just sitting empty.
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Mike

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#27281 - 03/08/10 04:36 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Wally B]
MonteMark Offline
member

Registered: 09/28/09
Posts: 120
Originally Posted By: Wally B
According to this site, Grays Harbor is in line for a total of $67,954,423 in recovery funds.

I couldn't get to the site. I do not believe the 68K includes money going to local schools. I'm not sure about other services, but I'm willing to bet the farm that schools are getting a whole lot more than that amount.

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#27283 - 03/08/10 05:18 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: MonteMark]
Wally B Offline
addict

Registered: 11/10/08
Posts: 434
Originally Posted By: MonteMark
I couldn't get to the site. I do not believe the 68K includes money going to local schools. I'm not sure about other services, but I'm willing to bet the farm that schools are getting a whole lot more than that amount.


The site, part of propublica.org, says $14,247,674.00 comes from of the Dept. of Education. Since it purports to track recovery funds, one may assume this is money over and above the usual appropriation.

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#27285 - 03/08/10 06:00 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: mdean]
Beavis H. Christ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 2946
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
Originally Posted By: mdean
...And, as if on cue, Exhibit A of why I soooo want Obama to get it right. Because apparently, when it suits them, Republicans think there are plenty of jobs just sitting empty.


Tom Delay--and anyone who believes his BS--is a typical Republican trying to blame the victim.

I don't know what the deal is in Texas, but here in Washington, to get unemployment compensation you have to apply for at least three jobs a week, keep records on where you've applied and who can be contacted to verify each application (which can be audited by the state at any time), and if you fail to go to a scheduled job interview or refuse any offer of work, not only do they cut your eligibility off but they can (and will, I am told) come after you to pay back every cent you've received in benefits right back to your very first check.

Add to that the fact that they are constantly screwing up paperwork and have a system where the left hand often doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and believe me, it's simpler and far less demeaning just to get a job.

Assuming you can find one.

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#27358 - 03/11/10 07:29 PM Re: Abuse of Power [Re: Bogus_bill]
Turnow Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 1950
Loc: Xalapa, Veracruz Mexico
Yahoo's "The Newsroom" blog has an accurate analysis of the "reconciliation" rules, quite in contrast to the WSJ propaganda piece to which you linked.

Quote:
Republicans are infuriated by the move and claim it's an abuse of what's called "normal order" in moving legislation through. South Carolina Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, for instance, has warned that a health care bill passed through reconciliation "would be the loss of the Senate as a real viable institution."

But Democrats counter that in the past Republicans have regularly used the tactic to pass legislation they prefer. PolitiFact notes that since 1981 reconciliation has been used 22 times: 8 times by Democrats and 14 by Republicans. Republican uses included the 1996 Welfare Reform bill and a 2007 expansion of student loans. And both parties have used the process to win incremental expansions of social benefits, from enhanced Medicare benefits to COBRA health plans extending health insurance coverage to the unemployed. Republicans respond to this by arguing that none of the past uses were as consequential in terms of impact on the economy and Americans' lives.

So if reconciliation is such a powerful tool, why didn't the Democrats use it earlier? Because of another restriction, known as the Byrd rule — named for West Virginia Senator Robert Byrd, who introduced it in 1974. The Byrd rule allows the minority party to block the use of reconciliation if a bill isn't tied strongly enough to the budget process. The full health care bill the Senate passed in December would have violated the rule (and possibly jeopardized support from many centrist Democrats hoping to avoid controversy).

But, because Democrats passed a full health reform bill in December with 60 votes and are only proposing to make changes to that through reconciliation, it's easier for them to argue that those changes are simply about making the bill fit the overall budget.

That doesn't, however, mean the political fight will be any less bitter. Last September, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky vowed that the Democrats could expect a "severe reaction" if they resorted to reconciliation. "Budget reconciliation has never been used to structure one-sixth of the American economy," he said at the time.

But for Reid to announce the plan to use reconciliation means he's confident that wavering Senate Democrats will support him. And he must not be too fearful of a severe reaction, because he's up for reelection in his home state of Nevada this November.


Get real Sen. Graham. The USA Senate didn't decompose following the 14 times the republican's have used the reconciliation process, nor following the 8 times democrats have employed the senate rule.
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Strive for the ideal, but deal with what's real.

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