#28244 - 04/09/10 10:40 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: ikayak]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3511
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
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Real nice sound bite and insult, MWMI.
Woop, the meds have run out again. Look out. I read Alinsky throughout the years to see what he was about, what he advocated; and then again to see where one of his disciples, Hillary Clinton, was coming from. (See her Wellesley thesis, There is Only the Fight: An Analysis of the Alinsky Model, which interestingly was kept a State secret during "the Clinton years".)
EEEK! HE HAS INVOKED THE NAME THAT MUST NOT BE SPOKEN! Hence, the difference between a reader of Alinsky and a student/disciple of Alinsky. Translation: A Democrat who reads Alinsky's ideas is a "disciple." A Republibagger who actually puts them in practice is a "casual reader."
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#28363 - 04/14/10 10:09 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: ikayak]
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addict
Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 514
Loc: Grays Harbor
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I wanted to refrain from using the trigger word "disciple", however if that gets my meaning across more clearly, then substitute it for "student."
I read Alinsky throughout the years to see what he was about, what he advocated; and then again to see where one of his disciples, Hillary Clinton, was coming from. (See her Wellesley thesis, There is Only the Fight: An Analysis of the Alinsky Model, which interestingly was kept a State secret during "the Clinton years".)
Hence, the difference between a reader of Alinsky and a student/disciple of Alinsky.
OK, so the difference is in putting the information to practice or not. OK, I can live with that. Read my post again. I don't give anyone a pass for using or advocating Alinsky's ideology or methods. I believe Alinsky's methods to be destructive. As evidenced in posts 28086 and 28087, the Right is more than a casual reader- they are putting it into practice. Yet, the only I see you holding accountable is the Left. Can one be just a casual reader when they are both using the book in practical application? No. However, I believe there are many non-readers who do what their "leaders" or "organizers" tell them to do without knowing the origin of impetus or ideology behind it. That's a whole separate issue. Sheeple, just doing what they're told- there are lots of them on both sides of the aisle. I'm asking you to please explain how what the Tea Party does with the book is different than what Obama does with it. According to Alinsky, the difference is who has "power", which Alinsky claims is "the very essence of life." Who has the power, mdean? Obama will remind you that he does. BS. There is no difference. There is no 'end justifies the means.' If the ideology is flawed, it doesn't matter if its practitioner has power or not. You're still trying to excuse it. Besides, I wasn't asking anything according to Alinsky, I was asking YOU.
_________________________
Mike
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#28368 - 04/14/10 11:57 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: mdean]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 3232
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Yet, the only I see you holding accountable is the Left. Read my post again. I don't give anyone a pass for using or advocating Alinsky's ideology or methods. I believe Alinsky's methods to be destructive. Can one be just a casual reader when they are both using the book in practical application? I've made myself clear, and if I were a betting person, I would bet that you have enough potent grey matter to see that. But just in case I'm wrong, or you're a Doubting Thomas type: I do not give ANYONE WITHIN THESE UNITED STATES (NO MATTER PARTY OR AFFILIATION OR LACK THEREOF) a pass for using Saul Alinksky's ideology as a change agent in our government or society. I believe the Alinsky model to be destructive. There is no 'end justifies the means.' Yeah...good luck convincing Alinsky's disciples of that. We recently saw B.O., Pelosi, and Reid thumb their collective noses at that assertion.
_________________________
"The true engine of economic growth will always be companies like Solyndra"...B.O.
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#28373 - 04/14/10 06:48 PM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: mdean]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 4757
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MDean, H. Clinton's thesis pointed out flaws in Alinsky's rules. She was not a supporter of his theories. One of her major disputes with his rules is this: his rules are written for those who are working for change from OUTSIDE the system; H. Clinton believes in working for change from INSIDE the system. I think her life is testament to that commitment. How can anyone argue that H. Clinton has been working outside the system with a straight face? As for the 'who has the power' issue, the first paragraph in the book says: What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away". Obama has power. And he worked inside the system to gain his position of power, not from without. Again, not Alinsky. As for the "the end justifies the means"....also not Alinsky. He does not promote 'anything goes'. He gives people guidelines for answering that question for themselves. While there are always extremists who might come up with an "anything goes" answer (on either side of the divide) based on Alinsky's guidelines, that doesn't mean that this is the natural outcome.
_________________________
"If a 'right' exists for me, but not for thee, then it's not a right but a privilege.' - Fred Clark
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#28377 - 04/14/10 09:17 PM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: ikayak]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3511
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
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There is no 'end justifies the means.' Yeah...good luck convincing Alinsky's disciples of that. We recently saw B.O., Pelosi, and Reid thumb their collective noses at that assertion. Well, let's see. The end was to get Republican participation in health insurance reform by adopting ideas Republicans themselves first proposed 16 years ago. This failed, because Republicans have no interest in reforming anything or indeed in participating in governance; their sole motivation is "oppose the black guy at all costs.," because this plays well with their brainless "base." What the President and the legislators actually interested in being a "legislative branch" (i.e. Democrats) should have done was tell the Repugs that if they didn't want to play, they weren't getting any of their ideas through at all. Then we might have had national health insurance, which would only put us 60 years behind the rest of the civilized world. Instead, the President is taking the high road. He's a better man than I am.
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#28380 - 04/15/10 07:54 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: Beavis H. Christ]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2289
Loc: SMA Mexico
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Instead, the President is taking the high road. He's a better man than I am. The Democrat's own players weren't behind a public option for the health plan. There was too much heat for them by big business, aka campaign contributors. The only choice was the one they went with: getting a slew of new people signed up to make the healthcare industry even richer. The high road was the only one available. It is not like Democrats can hang together as a bloc and get what was needed done. To see "hang together" one only needs to look at the Republicans. Nary a cross-over vote. If Obama could have pulled off a public option that is what we would have today. He did not have the support in his party for it.
_________________________
Obama's victory came from those who wanted him to change Washington, not America.
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#28408 - 04/15/10 10:55 PM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: funkycamper]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/08/09
Posts: 3232
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H. Clinton's thesis pointed out flaws in Alinsky's rules. She was not a supporter of his theories. One of her major disputes with his rules is this: his rules are written for those who are working for change from OUTSIDE the system; Of course she supported them; she was wrong; and, untrue. What did Alinsky say to the radicals in the aftermath of the 1968 Democratic Convention? He said they had three choices. They could 1) find a wailing wall and feel sorry for themselves; 2) go crazy and start bombing, warning that would lose support and turn people to the right; or 3) learn the lessons, go back to their states, organize, build power, and be the delegates at the next convention.Alinsky was an advocate of Fifth Column tactics. His students called it "boring from within."
_________________________
"The true engine of economic growth will always be companies like Solyndra"...B.O.
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#28410 - 04/16/10 04:31 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: ikayak]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 4757
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Those who have studied Clinton's thesis disagree with you. Her paper agrees with some of this methods but not all of them; she points out flaws. Any rational person would so the same.
So are you now saying that anybody who gets involved and becomes a delegate, is a student of Alinsky? If that's all it takes, then I guess everybody is.
_________________________
"If a 'right' exists for me, but not for thee, then it's not a right but a privilege.' - Fred Clark
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#28414 - 04/16/10 08:22 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: ikayak]
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addict
Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 514
Loc: Grays Harbor
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... 1) find a wailing wall and feel sorry for themselves; 2) go crazy and start bombing, warning that would lose support and turn people to the right; or 3) learn the lessons, go back to their states, organize, build power, and be the delegates at the next convention. The nerve. Imagine... telling the loser to use the loss as a learning experience and go home and practice and come back better prepared next time. Oh yeah, people like that are going straight to hell, what with their strategies and such. I feel sorry for people like that. You know, people like teachers, coaches, judges. And parents. Don't even get me started on parents, they're the worst! /sarcasm
_________________________
Mike
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#28416 - 04/16/10 09:06 AM
Re: Open letter to Teabaggers
[Re: mdean]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 4757
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I thought it would make sense to post the 10 rules: Rule 1: Power is not only what you have, but what an opponent thinks you have. If your organization is small, hide your numbers in the dark and raise a din that will make everyone think you have many more people than you do.
Rule 2: Never go outside the experience of your people. The result is confusion, fear, and retreat.
Rule 3: Whenever possible, go outside the experience of an opponent. Here you want to cause confusion, fear, and retreat.
Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules. “You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”
Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.
Rule 6: A good tactic is one your people enjoy. “If your people aren’t having a ball doing it, there is something very wrong with the tactic.”
Rule 7: A tactic that drags on for too long becomes a drag. Commitment may become ritualistic as people turn to other issues.
Rule 8: Keep the pressure on. Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period for your purpose. “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this that will cause the opposition to react to your advantage.”
Rule 9: The threat is more terrifying than the thing itself. When Alinsky leaked word that large numbers of poor people were going to tie up the washrooms of O’Hare Airport, Chicago city authorities quickly agreed to act on a longstanding commitment to a ghetto organization. They imagined the mayhem as thousands of passengers poured off airplanes to discover every washroom occupied. Then they imagined the international embarrassment and the damage to the city’s reputation.
Rule 10: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Avoid being trapped by an opponent or an interviewer who says, “Okay, what would you do?”
Rule 11: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Don’t try to attack abstract corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or spread the blame. Of course, the devil is in the details. However, I think anybody honestly reviewing these rules will see that most groups use most, if not all, of these rules, whether ultra-conservative or ultra-liberal or even more mainstream. And while anybody without scruples could definitely take these rules to the extreme, there are many ways these rules could be applied that would meet even the most stringent ethical standards. I'm just sayin'. I'm not a proponent or opponent of Alinsky. I do think more is being made of his rules than they warrant.
_________________________
"If a 'right' exists for me, but not for thee, then it's not a right but a privilege.' - Fred Clark
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