Long before B.O. finally tells the truth about it.


“For us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase,” the president said last September, in a spirited exchange with George Stephanopoulos on the ABC News program “This Week.”

When Mr. Stephanopoulos said the penalty appeared to fit the dictionary definition of a tax, Mr. Obama replied, “I absolutely reject that notion.”



Oops.

When is a tax a tax? Uh...when it only applies to rich people, and somehow making it go away actually magically makes revenues increase?

Yeah. Your electric bill is a tax. If we were to sell our public utility to a private utility and they were to double the rate, that would be a tax cut.

... but it would still suck ass.

Republicans only hate taxes for which you get something in return.

As a Republican I support the concept of every American paying for healthcare in an insurance style model. Yep! If you have a social security number and do not have private health insurance you should be paying dollars each month to the gov. to pre-pay for when

- you call 911 short of breath having a heart attack
- an ambulance shows up
- saves your butt
- drops you off at the local hospital
- stick a life saving device in you.

If you do not want to be saved do not call 911 but since you have the option you need to pre-pay. The way I see it, the paying people today are paying for the non-payers however I am a little confused as to why the Republicans are not seeing it this way as they do with say unemployment benefits or welfare.

I have pondered the above for many months and can argue either side. It is hard to think that having a social security number creates an expense for an American citizen who wants to wander the land but with healthcare it is just too important. It is a tuff conclusion but one I support.

Once we have chips in our wrists that keep track of our current health insurance coverage (or lack of) and our net worth (or lack of) my above thought process may be altered – then my traditional Republican views could come out in a logical manner.

This is not a tax. Come on, if people would not get pregnant “accidentally” we would not have any abortion discussions. Lets teach abstinence! – blah -- Sometimes reality and individual beliefs differ.


- Off to work to support those who are on welfare and to pay for my family’s healthcare and housing…

Welcome. I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

Of course, as an attorney, you recognize that now B.O. and his administration are indeed forced into arguing that it is, in fact, a tax.

I do know the new B&O tax in WA is a real tax.

Expand on the above?

The Commonwealth of Virginia is challenging in court the constitutionality of "Obamacare".

(Background: Virginia law says that no resident of the state can be compelled by the federal law to have health insurance, nor can any Virginian be forced to pay a fine or penalty for refusing health coverage.)


Deputy Assistant Attorney General Ian Gershengorn argued that The Commonwealth of Virginia does not have the right to ignore the federal law because of the minimum coverage standard provision (stating that if people do not purchase health insurance, they must pay a fine).

Gershengorn argued that penalty is a tax, which the federal government has Constitutional power to levy and therefore, it cannot be ignored by the states.


U.S. District Court Judge Henry Hudson: "Is this a tax enactment or a health care enactment?"

Gershengorn: "Well, your honor, it's both."

...?

Is there a point to this, or is this just more throwing buzzwords around to try and get some traction without resorting to those pesky "fact" things?

OK, rhetorical question.

Since you seem to continue to have a problem with reading, I'll give you the audio, and we'll see if you can put the puzzle together. Start at about 3:58.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL7ak__MGyw

That noise you just heard? The point, whizzing past your head again.

Nope, it wasn't the point doing the whizzing.
It was the change you were supposed to believe in.

No health insurance reform.

Election.

Health insurance reform.

Hmmmm....

WOOHOO! We can be just like Canada where the CMA issues reports stating that soaring health care costs, doctor shortages, and unacceptable wait times are putting lives at risk and sapping billions of dollars from the economy! YAY!

Virginians are already forced to buy health insurance.

They call it medicare.

Billions? Is that all?

http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358

If the US cut health care spending by a trillion dollars, we'd still spend more than Canadians do.

The operative word in this thread is "tax".

Medicare is a tax.

The penalty for ignoring the federal mandate that individuals/couples must purchase acceptable to the government health insurance coverage is a tax.

Obama argues to the public that it is not a tax.
We all know why.

His Deputy Assistant Attorney General argues to the court that it IS a tax.
We all know why.

Meet the new boss.
Same as the old boss.

Last time I checked, in US currency, there are 1000 billions in one trillion.
So yes, billions.

The Country Music Association?

lol

Iky, you already lost this argument.

Again...who cares?

If we get more service for less money by paying a "tax," than by fattening the wallets of insurance company executives, who gives a flying f#@$ what you call it?

You are again exposing the bankruptcy at the heart of the "conservative" argument, Iky--Bush was a disaster, doing nothing is not an option, and your side lost the debate.

51% of Independent voters.
79% of Republican voters.
18% of Democratic voters.

That's an unrealistic "if", Beavis.

Just ask the NHS.

Oh, you mean in one of those 15 or 16 other industrialized countries who have completely socialized medicine and yet have better health outcomes at less cost than we do? OK, let's do that! I think I need an MRI--hey, if we adopt Japan's system, I can get one for less than $100 even without insurance--and the MRI clinic still turns a profit! Imagine!

Thus the difference between Democrats and Teabaggerpublicans:

Democrats want to do the right thing.

Teabaggerpublicans want to do what's popular.

Hey, if we adopt Japan's system, YOU could be one of the thousands of patients rejected for emergency treatment at an understaffed, underequipped, and overcrowded hospital and never get to an MRI machine!

And spend half the money we do here in the U.S. and have the longest healthy life expectancy of any developed nation?

Boy, what a bummer that would be.

Let's take a closer look at that Beavis:


The United States has an obesity rate of 34%.

In 2008, the obese in this country accrued $147 billion in weight-related medical bills, double what it was a decade ago, accounting for about 9.1% of medical spending.

Overall, the United States spends about $1.8 trillion a year in medical costs associated with chronic diseases such as diabetes, heart disease, and cancer directly linked to obesity (and smoking), the largest risk factors.

Projected factors indicate that in 8 years the US obesity rate could be as high as 43%, costing $344 billion dollars a year in medical expenses, eating up 21% of health care spending.

The obesity rate in Japan is less than 5%.



How's that BMI thingie working out for you, Beavis?

Ah. SO now it's about me bein' fat, as opposed to a discussion of which country has the better public health system.

Epic fail, Iky.

This was your question we were taking a look at, referring to Japan:



I gave you an excellent indicator of why the US spends more money on health care and why Japan boasts a longer life expectancy. If you are obese and in poor health, you are part of the problem.

The United States also has twice as many motor vehicle deaths as Japan, altering life expectancy stats, which has little to do with the health care system except for the fact that in Japan you may be rejected by several hospital emergency rooms before one finding one that will treat you after a mv accident. If you consider that a better public health system, then knock yourself out. Just not in Japan.

Adopt a system that all must be paying into.

The people I have talked with that live in Canada, Tahiti and other French areas all like the healthcare system they have setup and one person from Tahiti said groups around the world are laughing at the US and the current setup of healthcare. Everyone should be paying.

Republican stock answer #2: Blame the victim.

Japan also outlawed corporate profits on health insurance. Gee, maybe that had something to do with costs going down!

Results are results. Japan gets better results for half the cost. It's not magic, Iky. Their system works. Ours doesn't.

Liberal stock answer #1: Play the victim.


Question: Victim of what, Beavis?

Answer: Your own health destructive choices.

Ah. So insurance companies play absolutely no role whatsoever in the fact that Japan -- and at least 14 other developed nations -- get better results from their national health care systems at less cost than we do?

It's all the fault of someone else, isn't it, Iky? Not the glorious and shining system on a hill that is unfettered capitalism. Nope, couldn't be that. Profits are the ultimate expression of morality! America, F%$^ YEAH!

Get better results? Get better results?

The WHO quit trying to determine that years ago because it was an impossible task to calculate accurately.

morality:

"standards of conduct that are generally accepted as right or proper"

What's YOUR ultimate expression of morality in this health care debate, Beavis? How moral are you in taking compassionate care of your "we the people" brothers by practicing a healthy lifestyle in order to decrease your health risks and health care costs to yourself and to society?

Talk to a 30 year old Aberdeen EMT/paramedic who has been carrying obese people through tight hallways, down and around corners in steep, sometimes rickety stairwells more than once per shift for more shifts than he cares to remember the past 5-7 years. Ask him how his back and knees are holding up under carrying around the enormous excess weight of others.

Obesity has far reaching consequences to your societal "brothers", Beavis...far more than just monetary consequences, as serious as those are and as threatening to our economy as they are.

You want to talk "morality" in US health care? Put your own house in order. Start with the man in the mirror. Do the right and proper thing concerning your own health care crisis, for yourself and your societal "brothers." Then you might have some credibility ranting about your preceived moral problems in US healthcare.

I have heard the same from relatives living in Norway and Germany.

Welcome to the forums, btw.

Actually, the French health care system is taking steps to become more "Americanized."

I'll file that where I file a lot of your other "facts".

Nothing to indicate the reform is more "Americanized". Besides, it's a moot point. Our system is clearly broken. That's the issue. What happens in France is their problem, not mine. Although I find it interesting that the criticism is coming from the French medical community. That should mean something to you as you have used the criticism from some members of America's medical community as a point to dispute what's going on with our own healthcare reform.

I "preceive" that you are again scapegoating and blaming victims.

I don't understand why you feel the profit margin is more important than someone else's life, but I guess we agree to disagree. In your case, Mammon it is.

Translation: more privatization and therefore, competition.

I don't understand why you feel that habitually consuming mass quantities of fat calories and empty carbs is more important than saving your own life and reducing your negative impact on our health care system and our economy, not to mention any future caregiver's back and knees. Do as you please and to hell with your impact on anyone else, especially their finances, especially when they have earned more and kept more than you have, no matter how hard they've worked for it, how many sacrifices along the way they've made, and how much of it they already give away to charity. Greed manifests in many forms, Beavis. Gluttony is one of them.

I could throw a bunch of Bible verses at you, Iky, I could use simple logic, I could use facts. None of those matter to you in the least. You're a sheep who will defend to the death the rights of the wealthy to continue shearing you over and over, no matter how egregious and shameful the method.

Beavis.
Forget about the wealthy.
Get your own house in order.

Baaaaaaaaaa.

Oh.MY!

I think this "light of the world" needs a new light-bulb.

I've been reading Beavis's rants and insults about the "crisis" and "immorality" in US health care for over a year now...how health care in this nation and that nation is so much better, costs less, and people live longer under those health care systems. The choices he has made for himself and continues to make for himself are the very choices that helped to create and maintain not an insignifant part of the "crisis". He finally got called out. Boodoughnutholehoo.

This is ridiculous, and really past the point of any rational argument.

The US has demonstrably the worst and least efficient healthcare delivery system in the world. It is twice as expensive as our nearest competitor, yet more people die of diseases that could have been prevented with adequate basic health care than anywhere else.

http://health.howstuffworks.com/medicine/healthcare/insurance/10-health-care-systems1.htm

The proof has been posted, reported and discussed ad-nauseum for 20 years. Anyone who still speaks to the contrary is simply trolling.

What a sanctimonious ad-hominem.

Regaining any credibility will be an uphill battle.

Playing the sanctimony and lack-of-credibility card in defense of Beavis on this issue is laughable.

There's absolutely no justified righteousness or credibility in continually bitching and moaning about the high cost of health care and a couple years less in life expectancy, while indulging in a huge contributing factor to those stats, expecting others to fix it while giving you a poor-me pass.

And that's not sanctimony, that's just the truth.

If "morality" and accountability do not start with each individual, feel free to explain to me where you believe they do start.

Since when have I asked for a "pass" on anything, you self-righteous piece of sh&t?

One of my oldest friends recently had an aortic aneurysm and almost died. He's had the condition since childhood--it's a congenital birth defect. He's a small business owner and couldn't afford health insurance, and now may lose his business because he has a quarter-million dollars in medical bills.

This never happens in Japan. It never happens in any of the civilized places where societies have decided that they are, in fact, their brothers' keepers.

Your reaction to my posts is typically mean-spirited and petty. Unlike you, I don't have to be personally experiencing a problem in order to see that it needs fixing for the good of all of us.

And yeah, I know, this is not in the flame pit, but you can go f*^k yourself, buddy. You and your ersatz, "I got mine so everybody else screw off" mentality is the heart of the poison that has been killing the American Dream for the last 30 years.

When you claim to be a victim as you have in this thread.




Since he's had the condition from birth, I presume as an adult he knew the risks of aneurysm and made his choices accordingly. In Japan he might very well be dead, as many emergency patients are turned away from Japan's hospitals.

Japan's having a healthcare crisis, Beavis. Their numbers of doctors and nurses are at the low end of the scale for developed countries. Their hospitals and ED's are overcrowded. The president of their Health Policy Institute has said that they don't expect to see a positive change for at least a decade.

Wow. I think any further discussion is useless. Your sanctimony and lack of empathy just get in the way.

By all means, let's just look the other way, sing kumbayah, drink the kool-aid, and not talk hard facts about the choices we make.

Let's pretend that if people would concentrate on changing the destructive choices they are making in their own lives which contribute to a national problem, rather than how the wealthy are screwing them over, the result would be just a whole lot more egocentric people, and not a stronger, healthier nation.

wooflippin'hoo.

You want the truth?
You can't handle the truth.

Climb off your soap box and start your education. You might start by reading "Nickled and Dimed". Although I doubt it would make a dent in your "perfect" noggin' or stone-cold heart.

My parents were born to the hard working poor.
My parents were the working poor during most of my childhood.
We raised our own children when we were the working poor.
I don't need to read about it to know what's it's like and remember how gut-wrenching it was at times.

Did Ehrenreich choose to stay in her minimum wage life,
or did she return to what she describes as her "actual social class"?

Who wouldn't? But that's not really the point, is it?

Yes, you're perfect and amazing. We know. We know. <sigh>

What IS your point, Funky?

Whenever the discussion turns to the cold-hard facts about the decisions that we make, it is the right, and the Republicans, and the Tea Partiers that scream that the Obamas and the liberals and the progressives want to take over their lives. To deny their freedoms, their lifestyle choices, their god-given rights.

A healthier food supply, active lifestyles, and personal responsibility would go a long way to reducing our burden on society for health care costs. Who is advocating that approach? When someone like 'Kitty' Mady comments about the chemicals in our food supply, she is mocked. When fast food restaurants are required to post calories on their menus, it's the 'Nanny State' at work.

That's where the credibility goes out the window. Refusing to work on the solution, working to prevent anyone else from working on the solution, like the Republican Party is doing, is the biggest part of the problem.

The cold hard fact is that no one is forcing anyone to continually eat copious amounts of high calorie, high fat, high carb junk food. If you are someone who does that and then rants and rages about the high cost of health care and lower life expectancy, then someday, someone is likely to call you out on it.




Uhm...me. And many, many other people who can read the greasy handwriting on the wall. US obesity rate in 7.5 more years? 43%. Disastrous for our country!





?





Love reading the nutritional pamphlets.
Used one yesterday in deciding to pass on a carb convention in a cup, otherwise known as a Jamba Juice fruit smoothie.



No, here's the biggest part of the problem: people refusing to work to get their own house in order. That's where credibility is lost. The solution? People working to get their own house in order.

"No, here's the biggest part of the problem: people refusing to work to get their own house in order. That's where credibility is lost. The solution? People working to get their own house in order."



As Gandhi said, "Be the change you want to see in the world."


Taking personal responsibility is much more difficult than choosing to put the responsibility in the hands of the government. However, making healthy lifestyle choices is one side of the issue. The other side is the nature of the health care system that is in place when it is needed. I think few would argue that our current system is the best we can do. Whether the Obama care program is an adequate improvement is certainly open to debate.

I agree. As a too fat man in America, I agree. I have caused most of MY problems. But, to sanctimoniously proclaim that my health choices (or Beavis') reduce the quality or eliminate the credibility of the condemnation of a broken American health system is a simple cop out.

The food industry is fattening us up and the sheeple are willingly plodding to the slaughter.

To suggest the answer is "all those people waking up and stop walking to the slaughter" is to A. deny the human experience and, B. ignore real solutions.

I wonder how it would work if food were put in store aisles based on fat and/or carb percentage.

End Cap Signs could say,

"REALLY, REALLY, FAT FOR LARD ASSES", and
"IF YOU'RE NOT FAT ENOUGH" and
"JUST ENOUGH FOR AN EXTRA ROLL OVER THE BELT" or
"FOR THE HEALTH JERKS WHO MAKE US ALL FEEL GUILTY"

Statistically, "we" can't win if the corporations want to keep coming at us. Without intervention, the corporations will eventually turn us into a nation of super blobs... or a nation of more super blobs. And the medical corporations will continue to take more and more of our resources for the medical problems we have created in our ravenous stupors. Left unchecked with unlimited resources and, especially now, a government and judicial system, they win. We lose.

It is so simple to blame corporations for personal weaknesses. I disagree with your statement. I don't smoke because I know it will kill me. I don't overeat for the same reason. I don't think I am unique for that insight.

I don't think it is wrong to ask for personal accountability for health choices. I also think that not doing this contributes to the problem but that is only partly what is wrong with the health care law. My main complaint is that it is too expensive to administer. This is going to add to the federal employment numbers big time. Just what we need. More people for our workers who produce things to pay for.

I really don't think you are all that obtuse, are you? But, based on your previous post, I'm sure you haven't read the book.

When many people have limited funds to pay for healthy food, must rely on food banks who don't necessarily have access to the healthiest food to give people, don't have transportation to go grocery shopping and, especially in inner-cities, often have to rely on small mini-markets for much of their groceries, don't have a freezer/canner so they can stock up their pantry when prices are low, and the numerous other obstacles to making healthy life-style choices you promote, it can be near impossible for people to achieve your level of "perfection". But, to you, I'm sure none of this matters and are just excuses of lazy, selfish people.

I'm beginning to wonder how you can stand walking amongst mere mortals.

Where, exactly, did I "rant and rage" about my lower life expectancy?

Parable:

Jesus sees a sick and homeless person on the side of the road. Does Jesus

A. Say "well, he obviously made some bad choices, so I'm not going to help him,"

or

B. help.

You say Americans have lower life expectancies because Americans make bad choices and don't take responsibility for their own actions.

Japanese people see their doctors an average of 14 times a year. The reason their health care system is considered "unsustainable" is because they're living too long and too many older people are in the system.

So if we have a Japanese-style system, we'll live too long...which will be unsustainable...and anyway, Americans lack character and make poor choices so we don't deserve to live as long?

Who's acting as the "death panel" now, Herr Mengele?

This is exactly why having conservatives in charge is so frightening. Liberals have their faults. But liberals don't write off the humanity of entire classes of people based on lies, disinformation and pure petty cruelty.

I think you're a self-righteous, pompous, mean and petty ass, Iky, but I don't think you deserve to die. You, on the other hand, apparently think I do.

Instead of talking about the issue, you made it about your appraisal of the moral inferiority of the person to whom you were talking.

It was the textbook definition of a sanctimonious ad-hominem. Embarassing.

Republicans and Democrats think differently. When Democrats think about social problems, they think about society. When Republicans think about social problems, they think "how about me?"

So when a Democrat is talking about unfair taxes, a Republican's response (based on the projection of their own values) leads them to believe that the Democrat must be poor. When a Democrat talks about the value of social programs, it must be because the Democrat is a welfare recipient. When a Democrat talks about our fundamentally messed up healthcare system, it must be because he's a lazy, fat unhealthy person who is exploiting you... laughing at you from the dialysis chair.

... because seeking the exploitive opportunity is what Republicans do, they expect reciprocity from everyone else.

Disagree all you want. But, left unchecked, actually even assisted by the government and like a small stream, corporations will eventually carve the Grand Canyon. People come and go, but the international conglomerates will be there plodding along throwing billions of dollars whereever they need to to get their way.



You are not unique. And you may enjoy better health because of your choices. And others may have worse health because of theirs. But, there will be people getting sick in spite of great choices and people living into their 90's chain smoking. We have the most expensive system without the best results. And many are without care (skip the obligatory "everyone can go to the ER" crap).



What's your definition of personal accountability? In America today, it's "if you made bad choices or get really unlucky, you're S.O.L." I have a different vision for America.



Maybe. I know our current system is too expensive and we're not getting the results we should.

Democrats want to solve problems with other people's money. Republicans realize that we are the other people. "About me" is really "about us".

That totally cannot be grasped by most Democrats. They start by thinking they are spending the rich peoples money and are going to be so surprised when health care is "their care" and runs out of control with it's generosity. No one can afford this as it is now legislated.

It isn't about generosity. We all benefit from public health, public welfare and public infrastructure.

Besides, for 90% of the country, "the money" IS "other people's money". That's the downside of allowing absolute wealth concentration, when one person has all the money, he gets the lunch check.

In the United States 20% of the people own 85% of all the wealth. The median net worth of the bottom half of the country is essentially zero.

It might be true that 80% of citizens want to pay for social programs with other people's money, because that's the only kind of money there is.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

That didn't fly in my household. I was raised to believe if your own behavior created or contributed to a problem, you had no grounds to whine about the problem until you changed your own behavior to correct/help correct the problem.



That's nonsense. I had the human experience of being 30 pounds overweight. The real solution was to reduce the amount of food and monitor the kind of food I fed my face, and to become more active. It's not rocket science. And you're not any less capable of making healthier choices.



Oh my freakin' goodness. How ever have those who are not obese in the United States escaped the evil clutches of all of those fat super blob promoting corporations?

The MacDonald's Corporation made me eat the Big Mac, super-sized fries, and drink that large shake. Frito Lay made me buy and eat that whole bag of chips. The Keebler elves made me eat that whole bag of cookies. Anheuser-Busch made me drink that six-pack of beer.

Not buying that for one second. Corporations don't turn people into super blobs...people turn themselves into super blobs. What ever happened to self-control?

If you go back and check you'll see that "the person" was the one who opened the door to the "morality" discussion. If one is going to point the "morality" and "heart bankruptcy" finger addressing an issue, they first need to check the three pointing backwards at themself.

No matter how you spin it, you're NOT doing the right moral thing or having the right heart for yourself or society when you maintain an obese lifestyle. And you ARE contributing to the high cost of health care and shortened national life expectancy, two markers being used to impugn our health care system. That is a textbook definition of hypocrisy!



And that leaves me, an Independent, taking inventory and asking myself "what do I need to do for myself to insure that my own house stays in healthy order and does not contribute to a social problem or be a burden to society."

And that is not sanctimony.
That is the original American spirit.

So? The household you were raised in had some serious flaws. Evidently, you haven't seemed to overcome all of them.

I, too was taught to take care of my issues and, for the most part do. I was not taught that the value of an individual's ideas or thoughts on an issue are diminished if the individual making those assessments has not taken care of all this issues in their life. If I am a smoker, I have not right to criticize tobacco companies for putting drugs in the tabacco? Of course I do. That's just stupid. Should I quit? Of course. But, I can't have an opinion regarding corporate abuse until I do? The people who raised you left out some serious logic.



The current health care system is broken. It is broken for the people making good choices and it is broken for the people making bad choices. If only the people making good choices were able to speak up, we'd end up with a system designed by you. Dog help us! (I want a bumper magnetic bumper sticker that says "Dog is my co-pilot!")



Corporations play the odds. They know that for every one hunred who withstand the intense pressure from tv, billboards, magazines, radio, etc., there is one or dozens or hundreds or thousands who fall to their means. They have the time, the clout, and the money to wait.

Anheuser-Busch made me drink that six-pack of beer.

Hey, I'm guilty of a Quarter Pounder with Cheese a couple times a year, but "Anheuser-Bush" beer? Now you've insulted me! I'd sooner drink horse-piss.



I think the whole thread started out about the health care system and got off on an Iky piss on Beavis moment (and, as a faithful reader, I know there are plenty of Beavis piss on Iky moments. You two are started to get a bit boring). That some people have less self control and/or make bad choices is irrelevant. The system is broken for the ones who make good choices, too. It's just f'in broken and if you can't see that I'm not sure where we go from here. We spend more than any other nation and we get worse results than a lot of them. Better personal choices will help the individual, but not the broken system. It, simply needs to be changed.

Amen! America's weight and health care for all are two separate issues.

Both need addressing, but arguing that health care for all shouldn't be in place until America's weight issue is managed seems like an weightless argument, just as health care should be a free market interprise with the ability to exclude a large segment of the population.

Is it acceptable that part of our population is without health care?

Apparently it is if you are a little heavy!

Too bad for the overweight person working at MacDonald's that, because of the current health care system, has to decide between paying for health care and rent. And too bad for that person when he gets something like, oh I don't know, skin cancer that drains his small bank account and causes him to go bankrupt because, well, it was his stupid fault for being fat.

Can we agree all should have access to equal and fair medical insurance which would be equal to what you have access to while working for a large corporation and then add in a "fat tax"?

^^ just a thought ^^

We could have agreed to that.



If we had Universal, Single Payer insurance, this would be the case, and we could continue our agreement.



I think we may part company here. How would that work? Would the multi-billionaire fatso pay the same as a welfare queen fatso? How would she pay, anyway? And, if she didn't pay, would we deny her health care?



Keep it up. We need more and more.

And the ones who raised you should have explained the meaning of the word hypocrisy.

Back in the day when I was raging against "the man", I heard Eldridge Cleaver speak. You're probably familiar with what he said, it's been around since, and most likely before, in various forms: "what we're saying is that you're either part of the solution or part of the problem."

If you smoke, you're in bed with the tobacco companies and are part of the problem. Be part of the solution. Don't smoke so you're not buying their poisonous product.

If you are obese, you're in bed with the high cost of health care and a lower national life expectancy. Again, part of the problem. Be part of the solution. Maintain a healthy weight.



Horse-piss isn't advertised as "America's Lager."
That's why I used Anheuser-Bush.




No, actually, it didn't.
It started out about B.O. and his administration's hypocrisy surrounding "tax". Beavis played dumb and switched it up to Nobamacare, immorality and heart bankruptcy (mine, Republicans, conservatives) and how Japan's health care system (which is in a major crisis of its own) is so much better than ours.



As I pointed out earlier, the WHO stopped years ago trying to rate health care systems by determining who gets better results because it is just too complex to calculate accurately.

But if it makes you feel better to say "we spend more than any other nation and we get worse results than a lot of them" (accuracy be damned), then knock yourself out. Just be advised: not in Japan.

The biggest determinant of high health care costs is gender.

About 33% more is spent for the healthcare of women than men. Oddly, this isn't because of pregnancy but because of their longer life.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

Smoking and obesity may shorten lives, but they don't result in greater than average lifetime healthcare costs.

http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0050029

Lots of good reasons to adopt healthier lifestyles, but saving the healthcare system isn't one of them.

So the point that Iky tried to make is bogus. The way to generate maximum healthcare costs is to live a long time. Iky's ostentatiously healthy lifestyle will result in greater lifetime healthcare costs.

And one that wasn't made in this thread.

Actually it started about you throwing around "tax" as if it made a difference what we called it. Like somehow "tax" was evil, but "fee" or "premium" or whatever wasn't.

Then you decided to make it about me, instead of about whether America's health insurance system is a gigantic waste of money in dire need of overhaul.

I pointed out that Japan spends less and gets better results. You said, in effect, that that's because there are fewer fat people in Japan, and since I'm fat, I should shut up and stop "ranting and raging."

Whereupon I pointed out a few cogent points. Like how, for example, I've never brought my own health into it, and don't have to personally experience something in order to see that it's a problem that needs fixing. And how the Japanese see a doctor on average 14 times a year. And how the only reason the Japanese system is seen as "unsustainable" is because the Japanese are living such long lives that the system is overburdened with the elderly.

Your apparent solution to this--at least the gist of your responses in this thread--is to let Americans die younger because it costs less and hell, they're fat and make bad choices anyway so they don't deserve to live.

The available Godwinisms here are plentiful. You want to ignore facts, in Iky Fantasyworld, fine. I would only remind you of the admonition as to who is to throw the first stone--and recommend deep introspection on your part, although I know the suggestion will fall on deaf ears.

so therefore, B.O. and his Administration are lying to us:




http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2009/r090727.htm

I am sincerely amazed.
I have been giving you too much credit.
I cannot believe you are totally and completely oblivious to the political point I was making.



If I were you I wouldn't bring my own health into either. If you are obese and complain about the high cost of health care and shorter US life expectancy, you are part of the problem you are complaining about.



Beavis...THAT'S NOTHING JAPAN BRAGS ABOUT! THEY SEE THAT AS A HUGE PROBLEM!!!




Look at what you are saying! They have a better system, they have universal health insurance coverage, and it's unsustainable!!! Hello? Anybody home? Huh? Think, McFly! Think!



Wow. You really do have a reading comprehension deficit, don't you?

Here's the deal, Beavis. The real deal.
I want you to be healthy in body, mind, heart, and spirit, while living a long, joyful, peace-filled life.



That is HILARIOUS coming from you.

Iky: Making a political point of people's health and wellbeing is precisely the point. It's evil.



I don't own any stock in insurance companies, and I am not an insurance company executive. Therefore I am not part of the problem. Your continued reliance on ad hominems only illustrates your childishness.




Ah. That's why there are so many articles out there from Japanese people complaining about their long lives. "Boy, we sure wish we could die sooner!"

Note, in the following chart, how countries where people visit the doctor more tend to have longer lives:





So...people should die sooner, because if they live longer it's too expensive to take care of them? The ONLY REASON IT'S CONSIDERED, note that word, CONSIDERED UNSUSTAINABLE IS BECAUSE IT'S WORKING AND THEY ARE LIVING LONGER.

THINK, IKY, THINK!

Or don't. I don't give a damn. You've proven your intellectual bankruptcy time and again here and now sunk to a new all-time low.

Agreed -- If we had Universal, Single Payer insurance, this would be the case, and we could continue our agreement.

I am not of support of a fat tax. However, I would entertain such concepts if we did get a Universal, single payer system.

So there should be no objection if B.O. is called President Evil then, because he continually tries to score political points using people's health and wellbeing, or lack thereof.



Oh...so it's insurance companies and their execs who are the problem. According to Gary Murrell this morning, it is now Obamacare that is the problem. And it's others who maintain an unhealthy weight who are part of the problem and burden, but not you?



So many parts to the problem, but Beavis plays no part in any of them.



Note in your "following chart" how many countries have a lower obesity rate than the United States. Hint: ALL of them.

Don't be foolish enough to pretend that a 30 pt. lower obesity rate has nothing to do with Japan's longer life expectancy. In provinces where the Japanese are eating a more Americanized diet and consequently obesity rates are RISING, their life expectancy is DEcreasing.

In Japan, many medications are filled for only a 4 day period. The patient is required to see the doctor again for each 4 day refill.

Now think of aalllllllll those people standing in long lines at Walmart pharmacies throughout the United States seeing their doctors every four days for refills. Yep, our rate of doctor visits would score sky high, too. Wow. Way to contain health care cost, Beavis.

Think, Beavis, Think!



Your posts indicate otherwise.



What was that you said about throwing stones?

BLAAAACK BLACK BLACKITTY



It's the entire for-profit American health insurance system that is the problem.



Gary is likely referring to the fact that the recently passed health insurance reform does not do away with the profit motive. Either way he is entitled to his opinion and you are still trolling without any real argument other than "HE'S BLACK! YOU'RE FAT" etc.



QED

You know nothing about me or my medical history--or anyone else who is overweight, for that matter--but you make the blanket assumption that it's all the fault of fat people. All of those immoral Americans, making poor choices, and they all deserve to live shorter lives so that insurance companies and investors can continue to extract their pound of flesh and contribute nothing to the national wellbeing.

I'm so glad we have shining examples of perfection like you to look up to, Iky. Please, be my guest, throw the first stone.



That's not why people go to the doctor so often in Japan, and it's not why Japan has so many more primary care doctors than specialists.

But you don't care about facts, because it's all the fault of the less-perfect! Useless eaters, the lot of them!

There is a British expression, "Jesus wept," that is especially apt in this instance.

OK, Iky.

In Japan the obesity rate is about 3.5 percent. In America, more like 30 percent.

So we should, by your logic, be spending 27 percent more on health care--after all, it's all the fault of the fatties, right? All those morally-deficient lunch buckets, me included, who lack your upright character and so on.

So what are the numbers, at least as of 2007?

USA per capita health care spending: $7290
Japan per capita health care spending: $2481

...and yet the Japanese have so many people living so much longer that the long-term expenses are becoming an issue?

Curiouser and curiouser!

Gee, maybe scapegoating your fellow citizens instead of looking for real answers isn't such a good idea!

But I know, Iky, you pray for all of us to be as perfect as only YOU are.

and also WHIIIITE WHITE WHITEITTY

Why do you hate whites, Beavis?
You never give white the equal billing it is entitled to.





...especially for those taking campaign money from the healthcare sector.





Nothing? I wouldn't say "nothing".
I've been face to face with you more than once;
was directly introduced to you in fact.
You're not much of an in-person social converser or group "kibitzer",
but I think it's fair to say that you leave an impression.






1. I've not said "it's all the fault of fat people", and

2. I've not made blanket assumptions. I've taken info from US government websites.

B.O.'s administration has said that obesity places a enormous burden on this country. Obesity is a leading cause in developing chronic disease, and treatment of chronic disease accounts for over 75% of national healthcare expenditures. Are you calling him a liar?

You want to reduce healthcare costs and lengthen life expectancy in the United States?
Reduce the incidence of chronic disease.
You want to reduce the incidence of chronic disease?
Reduce the incidence of obesity.
It doesn't get any more real than that.






I stated one of the reasons why people go to the doctor so often in Japan (prescription refills.) Another reason is that the government rate paid to doctors is paid on a per patient visit. Do the math.

The reason Japan has so many more primary care doctors than specialists (REAL, TRAINED specialists) is that the government fee and payment structure eliminates incentive to become a specialist. Not many Japanese doctors are board certified. Most have done just enough to get a basic license which is good for life.

Also in Japan, if you have a basic medical license, you can call yourself a cardiologist, gastroenterologist, neurologist, or any other medical "ologist". Some hospitals are owned and operated by one single doctor. Sometimes they act both as the surgeon and the anesthesiologist. Who holds them accountable? Japan doesn't have an active peer review and discipline system, nor a mandatory hospital accreditation process.

So...better healthcare system?

Here's a British expression: Don't be such a wally, Dave.




Obesity and aging, (and a very low birth rate - the US has almost twice as many babies born per capita) those are the biggies becoming huge healthcare issues for Japan. And then there's the fact that half the hospitals in Japan are in deep financial deficit.

But hey! They now have mandatory government fat screening in Japan for most of the population.
Too much "middle ground" and you're put into diet and exercise counseling.

And under NObamacare, by 2014, your doctor will be required to report your height, weight, and BMI.
The greasy handwriting is on the wall: government diet and exercise clinics coming to a neighborhood near you!

And it's really not so curious when you take a look at the bigger picture.
For instance:

# of organ transplants in the United States January-April of THIS year: 9,107 = 76 per day

# of organ transplants in Japan SINCE 1997: 81

And of course there's the cost factor of harvesting the organs.

Why would you deprive 9,107 people of organ transplants by trading our system for Japan's?
Why do you hate those needing and receiving transplants so much?

Gee, maybe trading your country's healthcare system for another country's instead of looking for real answers isn't such a good idea!


One interesting note: it appears that you don't follow "the Market", so just an fyi: 75% of Aflac's $18 billion revenue comes from policies supplementing work and government health insurance in Japan. Market penetration is expanding there. Just out today: Aflac's 2nd quarter profit rose 85% on a stronger yen.

Gotta love Japan.

You poor, poor oppressed white man.



Nah. You used "obese." Weasel.




Your blanket assumption is that the larger percentage of obese people in this country represents a failure of character on the part of the obese.

Anything to avoid looking at the real problem, which is a small but vocal percentage of the population, you included, that refuses to be part of the fabric of an actual American society, while loudly proclaiming themselves to be the epitome of American values.

That so many of you petty and arrogant idiots also claim to be Christians is both ironic and sad.

Last word to you, troll.

"Failure of character"

I don't believe I made any "assumption" concerning "character".
I used government statistics, not assumptions.
I used the definition of "morality".

Maintaining an obese weight is a failure to do the right thing for yourself and your country.

Twist that.