#30931 - 08/17/10 09:20 AM
Social Security Crisis
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3274
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Social Security is a government program with dedicated funding and its own accounting.
Workers pay FICA payroll taxes. We keep track of that money. Workers pay $100x this month. We mail out checks to retirees for $90x. That leaves $10x surplus.
First thing to note: The supposed Social Security Crisis involves pretty much the only thing in the government that has a surplus. (This is a clue... when people see a surplus in anything their minds turn to how to grab it. Note how the rich managed to appropriate the Clinton budget surplus in the form of Bush/Cheney tax cuts.)
Okay... that $10x surplus is put into a dedicated fund. Then the rest of the government takes that $10x, spends it and replaces it with an IOU.
Is Social Security solvent?
This is actually two questions.
1) Did we put enough int the piggy bank to pay for SS?
Yes. Social Security is solvent until 2037. It is entirely possible that if we change nothing Social Security will remain solvent past 2037. In fact, it may remain solvent for as long as we can project with no changes.
And if Social Security became "insolvent" that would not mean checks would stop. If the system takes in $100 and has to pay out $103 it is insolvent insofar as it is not taking in enough to meet its obligations but it is still able to meet 97% of its obligations.
In that scenario benefits would have to be be cut to make up the difference. That would be the worst thing that ever happened. If the accounting forced a reduction in benefits in 2040 (which is not known to be the case, BTW) it would be the worst thing that ever happened. The Earth would crash into the sun or something.
Since the *possibility* of having to reduce benefits 30 years from now is the worst thing ever we have a crisis.
How can we solve the terrible crisis of maybe cutting benefits someday?
Cut benefits before 2040 for real.
See... problem solved.
If your head just exploded then SS is more solvent because you will not be able to collect on any of the money you paid in during your life before your head exploded.)
2) Is there enough in the piggy bank to pay for SS?
We put in either enough or very, very nearly enough. Unfortunately it is not there. It was taken and spent on clever things like the Iraq War.
And now we see the REAL Social Security crisis. The SS money went into general revenue in exchanges for IOUs. And if we had to pay back those IOUs it would be inconvenient.
We have a big deficit. Someday (when the economy is functioning better) we will have to raise revenues or cut spending.
A big part of what we have to pay out will be SS. So of course it is only right that SS should be cut...
Except that SS, unlike everything else, actually pays for all or very nearly all of itself.
The big coming deficit crisis of 2040 or whenever will not have been caused by SS. It will have been caused by the strain of paying back the IOUs for all that money we took.
The "crisis" is that 1) the government has a whopping deficit and 2) the government has to pay back the SS IOUs.
What sort of moral degenerate does a person have to be to see a nexus there?
The government is behaving like those insurance companies that collect premiums for decades then skip town when there is a hurricane.
The money to pay back the IOUs is just a normal, fungible dollar in the federal budget. It is utterly morally and intellectual bankrupt to think of repaying a fricking DEBT (an IOU) as a favor! It is no different from any other dollar the government is obliged to pay out.
Cutting SS benefits to paper over the inconvenience of having to repay a debt has nothing to do with Social Security. It has to do with how to repay a debt. ... and the definition of "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States of America". Okay... so we are sitting in the future and we have to come up with, say $20 Trillion. Well, we can cut SS benefits or cut something else or raise taxes. These are choices. These choices determine who will be stuck with paying back the IOUs.
Cutting SS benefits is not fiscal austerity, IT IS A TRANSFER PAYMENT FROM THE POOL OF FICA TAX PAYERS TO THE POOL OF INCOME AND CAPITAL GAINS TAX PAYERS.
And that is why it is favored by the rich and opposed by the poor. For some dumb-ass reason poor people don't like having money they paid diverted to the better-off. http://www.democraticunderground.com/dis...mesg_id=8961669
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras
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#30935 - 08/17/10 10:36 AM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Lumberjack]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2289
Loc: SMA Mexico
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All this you have posted fails to address that point of no return where, because of congressional irresponsibilities, the country cannot pay it's bills nor can you raise taxes enough to keep the real necessities like police forces, schools, etc. going.
At that point Social Security is extremely vulnerable. My advise to you is to not count on that being part of your retirement.
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Obama's victory came from those who wanted him to change Washington, not America.
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#30937 - 08/17/10 12:02 PM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Bogus_bill]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3274
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All this you have posted fails to address that point of no return where, because of congressional irresponsibilities, the country cannot pay it's bills nor can you raise taxes enough to keep the real necessities like police forces, schools, etc. going.
At that point Social Security is extremely vulnerable. My advise to you is to not count on that being part of your retirement. http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php This is a graph of the top income tax rate in the US. Those subject to that tax rate make 90% of all the income. Take particular note of what the income tax rate in 1982 was - 70%. In 1983, that tax burden was shifted onto low and middle income workers under the guise of "not leaving a burden on our children". "Not enough money" isn't the problem. Too much money is. Specifically, "so much money that they can control government" is THE fundamental problem. Social Security is only vulnerable to the extent that we voters are willing to elect people who intend to steal from us.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras
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#31013 - 08/20/10 07:29 AM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Lumberjack]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2289
Loc: SMA Mexico
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This morning: A White House-created commission is considering proposals to raise the retirement age and take other steps to shore up the finances of Social Security, prompting key players to prepare for a major battle over the program's future.
In addition to raising the retirement age, which is now set to reach age 67 in 2027, specific cuts under consideration include lowering benefits for wealthier retires and trimming annual cost-of-living increases, perhaps only for wealthier retirees, people familiar with the talks said.
Democrats are pushing this. The first fallback for spending cuts is Social Security. This is not a done deal but it says much about how these people think. link
Edited by Bogus_bill (08/20/10 07:31 AM) Edit Reason: forgot the link
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Obama's victory came from those who wanted him to change Washington, not America.
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#31014 - 08/20/10 08:52 AM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Bogus_bill]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3274
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The only fix necessary for a projected problem 27 years from now is the one Obama promised on the campaign trail; lift the earnings cap subject to ss tax.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras
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#31018 - 08/20/10 09:46 AM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Bogus_bill]
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member
Registered: 09/28/09
Posts: 163
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Do you mean the following commission?
Republicans: Sen. Alan Simpson. Former Republican Senator from Wyoming Rep. Dave Camp (R-MI 4) Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) Sen. Mike Crapo (R-ID) Sen. Judd Gregg (R-NH) Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-TX 5) Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI 1)
Democrats: Erskine Bowles, Chief of Staff to President Clinton Sen. Max Baucus (D-MT) Rep. Xavier Becerra (D-CA 31) Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND) Sen. Richard Durbin (D-IL) Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL 9) Rep. John Spratt (D-SC 5)
Others: David Cote, Chairman and CEO, Honeywell International Ann Fudge, Former CEO, Young & Rubicam Brand Alice Rivlin, Senior Fellow, Brookings Institute and former Director, Office of Management & Budget Andrew Stern, President, Service Employees International Union
It seems like a bipartisan commission whose recommendation requires 14 votes. There are only a finite set of possible solutions, increase monies in or out, change the age, go private, or a combination. It sounded like Democrats aren't excited about changing benefits, Republicans aren't excited about increasing taxes.
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#31021 - 08/20/10 11:09 AM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Lumberjack]
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addict
Registered: 07/10/08
Posts: 588
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The only fix necessary for a projected problem 27 years from now is the one Obama promised on the campaign trail; lift the earnings cap subject to ss tax. This seems to me to be a real no brainer. So what's the argument against doing so?
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"Both politicians and diapers need to be changed often and for the same reason!" Mark Twain
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#31022 - 08/20/10 12:20 PM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: Brit]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3511
Loc: Heaven. Yeah, cool.
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This seems to me to be a real no brainer. So what's the argument against doing so?
Because then raising the retirement age won't have the effect of making poor people directly pay rich people.
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#31024 - 08/20/10 12:33 PM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: MonteMark]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2289
Loc: SMA Mexico
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It is just talk but do you really think cutting benefits should even be on the table? As far as cutting rich peoples benefits, define rich. Explain why a retirement income should ever be allocated by the neediness of the recipient.
I have said for years that the day is coming that Social Security will be regarded as welfare. The start of that process is when the richer class who paid into cannot receive it because of apparent wealth (even though that itself may be illusionary). From that point to not pay benefits you just need to keep re-defining what exactly rich is. It could become having $5,000 in the bank and owning your own home.
To have a commission even consider these alternatives is a betrayal of trust. Every year, as the government cannot budget themselves, this will arise again and again. The public will be told that SS was never a promise. It will become welfare if they get that message through.
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Obama's victory came from those who wanted him to change Washington, not America.
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#31027 - 08/20/10 05:00 PM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: MonteMark]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3274
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There are only a finite set of possible solutions Or recognize that the problem is highly subject to instrumentation error. Each year for the last 20 years, the projected date of insolvency has been pushed back. Due to the squishiness of the expectations used to project finances 25+ years in the future, it is now as urgent of a problem as it was in 1994. http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/briefingpapers_fixsocsec/The deficit commission is looking at social security to solve a problem within the rest of government. It should be outside their scope of work.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras
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#31030 - 08/20/10 07:08 PM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: MonteMark]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 07/09/08
Posts: 2289
Loc: SMA Mexico
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If you have been following this thread you know that all that money is already there in a trust so there is no need to worry.
There are a lot of options on the Presidents table. We are fighting a war that is not a whole lot different than Vietnam. Get out and spend the money here.
Of course that particular president is on another vacation with the queen and family.
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Obama's victory came from those who wanted him to change Washington, not America.
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#31032 - 08/20/10 08:59 PM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: MonteMark]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 3274
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I have been.
2037 may seem like a long way away, but if you were born after 1970, tweaks need to be made. I'm a late baby boomer, and there will be a large number of my generation added to this group. People born in 1960 will be 77 in 2037. There have been a number of tweaks over the years to extend out it's solvency.
Even though I also think our military spending is way out-of-control, I cannot imagine a group that would make retirement benefits as a budgetary item. In 1996, the trustees projected that the system would go broke in 2029 (34 years) In 2007, they said 2041 (33 years). Today they say 2037 (27 years). The degree of anticipated crisis has remained essentially the same for the last 14 years. The target is moving because the assumptions move. The SS trustees publish three financial forecasts. Optimistic, "most likely" and pessimistic. For 30 years, the "most likely" scenario has been consistently pessimistic. The real goal is to set up the conditions where government never has to repay the government bonds that workers have invested in.
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It is by having hands that man is the most intelligent of animals - Anaxagoras
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#31033 - 08/21/10 12:52 AM
Re: Social Security Crisis
[Re: MonteMark]
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veteran
Registered: 03/31/09
Posts: 1203
Loc: AberVegas
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Wait a minute, I was born after 1970! Of course, therein lies this issue as far as repaying what is owed to SS. Generally speaking, people born after 1970 aren't voting in the numbers as those born before 1970. So there's little political risk to today's policy makers. This is same reason that when running a budget surplus in the early 2000s, instead of paying down the debt, we cut taxes. The debt and the deficit would wait for another day, another generation. While the spending is high now, it seems more like a temporary situation brought on by a bad economy. The deficit increases of the last decade were brought on by political greed.
I hope to see some progress in the next few years as far as getting people closer to my age involved in the process. Otherwise, we'll be stuck with a future that is handed to us.
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"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong." -Carl Sagan
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